Why Do Festivals Hire The Wrong Sound Guys?

[Charlie Bernstein]

What's the name of that website that lets people rate plumbers and carpenters and garages and whatnot? I wonder if there's a pro audio section there.

[Dagger Gordon]

[QUOTE=Bren;1592978

Since I am just a plug'n'play fill-in type of musician in a variety of local bands I have developed a very simple handcarry set up of my mandolin with McIntyre pickup or tenor banjo with Schatter , good cables, and a plain old BOSS GE-7 EQ box set to cut out the troublesome frequencies and give a natural sound. Which means mostly mid-range, top and bottom cut right off. YMMV.
.[/QUOTE]


Hi Bren,

Exactly. The Boss GE-7 graphic equalizer is a really effective way to get a sound on the mandolin.

I think it's too easy to always blame the sound guy. You need to take some responsibility for your own or your band's sound.
You need to put some thought into how to actually play into a microphone if that's what you prefer, and indeed what kind of microphone. I have often read comments here that a microphone is best for amplifying a mandolin, but in my (considerable) experience it's damned hard to get the level loud enough like that.

[Charlieshafer]

What's the name of that website that lets people rate plumbers and carpenters and garages and whatnot? I wonder if there's a pro audio section there.

Nice thought, never work! Too many variables both indoors and outdoors. Dagger's comment about not getting enough volume out of a microphone is a perfect example. He's been playing a long time, but I've been running a concert venue and sound for a long time, and get all the volume I need out of a microphone, as long as the player stays in the right position.

[Tom Haywood]

My experience with sound men the past few years is pretty much the same as Banjoboy describes in the OP. Way too loud,way too much bass, way too little effort to get all the pieces together, bad sound more often than good sound. I first noticed this with some guys running sound for rock shows. It became obvious that they simply can't hear very well. I quit going to rock shows and I quit playing electric music. Problem solved - until I noticed it creeping into acoustic shows mixed by guys with years of experience doing acoustic sound, guys who have always been good at it. Two of these guys are good friends of mine and I play their venues regularly, but I now get a headache every time I go to listen and I get very frustrated every time I play. One of them can't hear the ringing and initial feedback that is constant in his mix now and he admitted it the other night. His idea of a sound check is a joke; then he doesn't hear the musicians asking for adjustments. The other one couldn't hear a loud hissing in the house mains the other night that was due to a short in the bass player's cord. He couldn't hear it even by isolating the channel with headphones on. His son asked him if maybe it was the same frequency that he knows he can't hear. And that's the problem. Years of sitting in front of loud speakers has taken a toll on their hearing. It's really sad, because they are doing what they love and are very much committed to it.

[Dagger Gordon]

Nice thought, never work! Too many variables both indoors and outdoors. Dagger's comment about not getting enough volume out of a microphone is a perfect example. He's been playing a long time, but I've been running a concert venue and sound for a long time, and get all the volume I need out of a microphone, as long as the player stays in the right position.

Hi Charlie,

I'm certainly not saying it can't be done, but I think it can be quite problematic.

If it's a nice quiet venue with everybody listening then microphones work really well. No doubt about it. And sometimes if you're lucky you might not need a PA system at all. Such an atmosphere can be a lovely way to experience music, and I'm all for it.
But nowadays I find that many of the gigs I get involve dancing, and often have a pretty noisy crowd, and that's when it becomes a challenge.

Now I know people who have been through the whole scene of using pickups and have reverted to using microphones because they prefer it. Such people usually know a bit about it and have thought about what they are doing quite a lot, in my experience, and know what kind of mic suits them, where to position it in relation to their instrument etc and can indeed get a great sound.

It would be interesting to hear from Paul Kotapish for example. He now plays his mandolin through a mic with Wake The Dead if I recall correctly from a previous thread, with good results.

Similarly, I'm sure we have all heard pretty horrible sounds coming out of instruments with pickups. You can certainly get more volume, but often you are sounding worse - only louder! So once again you need to know a bit about EQ etc, which is where Bren and my comments about the Boss GE-7 equaliser came in.

By the way, Charlie, I just checked out your Fire In The Kitchen stuff. Excellent! My wife's sisters both live in Connecticut.

[Charlieshafer]

Hi Charlie,



By the way, Charlie, I just checked out your Fire In The Kitchen stuff. Excellent! My wife's sisters both live in Connecticut.

Thanks you! Tell 'em to get in touch if they're close! Do they play anything? They can join the Skunks, too, it's free..

[Dagger Gordon]

They are quite close, actually. Niantic and Salem.

They do like music. Used to be in school marching band type of thing.
I'll give you a shout if I'm going to be around. No real plans to visit at this point though - my wife is off to The Orkney Islands with one sister today as it happens.

I'm sure they might be interested in some of your concerts. I'll let them know.

Cheers

[Bren]

Thanks for the comments Dagger.

It was Brian from Saltfish who advised me to get a GE-7 , about £35 on eBay at the time, and I just worked the settings out through trial and error. I'm really ignorant about audio equipment but "I know what I like".

I do try to turn up with a natural-sounding EQ and give the soundperson as much signal as I can, makes their job easier. Having said that I've encountered all the bad things mentioned in this thread too.

The main reason I prefer a pickup to a mike is that I like to move around a bit - helps my back, which gets very sore standing or sitting in one place on a long dance gig otherwise. And a sore back leads to less flexible playing.

[Charlieshafer]

Thanks for the comments Dagger.


The main reason I prefer a pickup to a mike is that I like to move around a bit - helps my back, which gets very sore standing or sitting in one place on a long dance gig otherwise.

Dance gigs, you get a pass! Those are all about comfort, banging away for hours on end....Sound quality is a lot less critical there, too.

[Dagger Gordon]

Dance gigs, you get a pass! Those are all about comfort, banging away for hours on end....Sound quality is a lot less critical there, too.

I think what Bren and I are doing is in a quite different environment from the gigs which you are putting in Madison, Charlie.

Bren, I'm also fairly ignorant and know what I like, but over the years I've got a pretty good idea what it is I'm looking for. I found the GE-7 myself and later Brian told me he used one.

In case there is any doubt, I like playing for dances and there is often a lot of 'non-dancing' music involved also. I get some pretty upmarket gigs actually, and sound does need to be pretty good.

[Bren]

Dance gigs, you get a pass! Those are all about comfort, banging away for hours on end....Sound quality is a lot less critical there, too.

We really try to make a good sound while still giving it plenty of "lift".

I don't see why wedding dance bands (mostly weddings, but other functions too) should be crappy. A proportion of the crowd usually sit out a dance or two and listen anyway.

Vanity also plays a part. I like to think people are hearing me at my best, whatever that may be.

These days too, people are taking videos and passing them on as recommendations, things like that. Inevitably a clip will find its way onto the internet. They always seem to catch the moment when band goes into a new tune I haven't learned yet, or I'm taking a swig from my bottle ... once I walked out in front of the PA to listen for balance, unaware that I was presenting my posterior to the tripod-mounted video camera from the cake-cutting ceremony, still filming away. That's one way to fill the screen!

[fidlplr1979]

Having worked, over the years, on both sides of the fence, you may be interested to hear that sound "guys" have as many complaints about some musicians as musicians have about sound guys.

As a professional studio engineer and A/V specialist AS WELL as acoustic musician and my own bands sound guy, I can attest to the fact that it works both ways. That being said I will say that a lot of so-called FOH engineers are completely unfamiliar with how to mix acoustic instruments. Mixing electric (dynamic mics, electric amps) is far and away a different animal from that of acoustic (condenser mics, acoustic pickups) and the two must be approached from very different angles. Most of you performing cafe members can attest to this and I'm not telling you anything you don't know. I think part of the problem is communication between the band and the "sound guy". I thinks it's best that every band have a designated member who is familiar with PA equipment (enough for their own needs anyway) and how their respective band's mix should be and that person be the one who communicates to whichever engineer is running the board for their particular set and let them know your expectations and concerns. Most sound guys want to please their performers but they also have an audience who is their first priority and striking a balance between the two is what makes a great sound guy/engineer.

[Bren]

With one band, I always had a problem convincing sound people that they had to soundcheck the banjo along with the bass and drums, not just in isolation.

The top of the banjo vibrates so much with every bass thud and drum beat that it's almost a different instrument.

The automatic reaction of the average pub venue sound person when this happens during a set is to just turn it down, then you can't hear yourself. They seem to be schooled on rock power trios and little else.

I would leave it at that and play by numbers but travelling with our own sound man showed me that you can overcome these issues. He always got us good sound and good onstage balance.

[Ray(T)]

A 4 year old thread I'd forgotten about!

I think most avenues have been covered except to say that, irrespective of the abilities of the soundman, the person performing on stage is in a much worse position to gudge the quality of the sound than whosoever is in charge of the knobs.

As for "..... how much do soundmen get paid?". Not enough in my experience. It's quite some time since I did any professional work in this respect but, working on a fesival, the job can involve packing up your valuable bits after a concert has finished around midnight or beyond, travelling to your hotel and being back on site for sound checks to start again at 09.00 the following morning.