Thoughts on UK luthiers' instruments?

[grandomando]

Hello all,

After having my beginner level OM for some years now, I have decided to take the plunge and get a luthier-made one. Budget here is under 1500 euros.

After some initial investigations I have settled to get mine from a UK luthier (availability, price, etc., being the reasons)

I am very intested in Hathways and Buchanans, which have received good reviews on this site!

What are your thoughts on these instruments' sound? Any differences? I am looking for a deep, sweet, sonorous, mandolin-like sound for stage performance purposes. Possibly sessions, but I am not primarily a mando player. I play all kinds of European folk, and have started dabbling in jazz.

Looks are not a priority. Choice of woods is something I do not know a lot about. Seems like the top builders use rosewood bodies. How does it compare with maple?

[Dagger Gordon]

As ever, the best advice is play them if at all possible.

You should be able to track down some examples of Hathway and Buchanan instruments if you are in the UK.
There are some Hathway mandolins in Hobgoblin in London, for example, which I thought seemed quite good. Not sure about OMs. Where do you live?

And indeed there are other UK makers. Moon seem to have an OM for £750 which looks nice. Fylde might be not far above your budget either. Their price list (June 2012) has a Touchstone Octave Mandola for £1095.

What kind of OM do you currently play?

[Bertram Henze]

Fylde might be not far above your budget either.

+1
check them out. Great sound for the pound.

[grandomando]

Dagger, I live in the far north of Europe. In my neck of the woods, there aren't many mando specialist dealers, and the luthiers' prices are prohibitive compared to the UK. As it happens, however, I will be going to London quite soon. Hobgoblin will be my nro 1 destination, as they should have Fylde's, Hathways and Buchanans (should drop them a note fairly soon about my coming pilgrimage). I will try and visit Paul Hathway's workshop also. Currently I play an Ozark 2240 (round hole, not the kitchy one), I bought it used on eBay, and while it's probably Korean and made of laminate, it does have a surprisingly nice tone. Not like a tin can at all, but quite dark and reasonably loud. It's just not reliable on stage, atmospheric conditions wreak havoc on it, and the bass end of things isn't exactly wonderful.

Bertram, unfortunately the video does not seem to be working, but I am familiar with the Fylde brand. I will definitely check them out, and the price is well in my range! I did find your channel though, by accident. May I ask which acoustic OM you play?

Thanks to both for advice!

[southcoastsounds]

Hello all,

After some initial investigations I have settled to get mine from a UK luthier (availability, price, etc., being the reasons)

I am very interested in Hathways. . .

What are your thoughts on these instruments' sound? Any differences? I am looking for a deep, sweet, sonorous, mandolin-like sound for stage performance purposes.

My Paul Hathway OM-2 arrived about 6 weeks ago and I love it. I've only recorded one tune on it so far and I used reverb so it's not a good guide.

http://youtu.be/FYKzFXJvL0o

However, having previously invested a lot of money in a custom-made octave with great (expensive) woods, I can honestly say, the Hathway is just as good in terms of playability and sound.

A friend of mine has three Hathway instruments - 5 course mandolin, cittern and OM and all of them are very fine instruments - which is what persuaded me to get one. I shall definitely stick to this maker as the value for money is also exceptional.

If you'd like more information about it, please send me a private message.

Tom

[grandomando]

Tom, your Hathway looks stunning. Hope we get to hear more of it in the future! I PM'd you.

Does anyone have any personal preferences regarding tone woods?

[Shelagh Moore]

Having owned Hathway, Fylde, Buchanan and Moon OMs I can say all are good, well-made, excellent-sounding and value for money instruments. Of these I liked the sound of the Buchanan best but found its 20" scale a little short.

[grandomando]

Richard, thanks for your input! What a lot of experience regarding this issue, and I am happy to be able to draw from it. How did you find the shorter scale limiting? Was it regarding melody or chord playing? Also, did you find major differences between the sound of these instruments, or were they fairly similar?

The Buchanan appeals to me a lot, but the incredibly short scale and guitar style saddle puzzle me! How can that short scale accomodate a good tone? I have about medium-sized hands as far as human beings go, but I do a lot of melody playing, so the longer lengths I have tried feel really awkward. The Buchanan seems like it would play easily, and even though I said looks are not a priority, they do have a beautiful shape as well.

[Dagger Gordon]

Having owned Hathway, Fylde, Buchanan and Moon OMs I can say all are good, well-made, excellent-sounding and value for money instruments. Of these I liked the sound of the Buchanan best but found its 20" scale a little short.

Richard,

You look to be in a good position to comment on the differences between them.

I have sometimes noted that some OMs have a neck which is thicker (not wider but thicker) than I would prefer. Did you find much variation on the feel of the necks?

[Bertram Henze]

Bertram, unfortunately the video does not seem to be working, but I am familiar with the Fylde brand. I will definitely check them out, and the price is well in my range! I did find your channel though, by accident. May I ask which acoustic OM you play?

Sorry, here is the correct one.
But since you found my channel, take your pick.
I play the regular Touchstone Octave Mandola.

[Anglocelt]

I agree that the makers listed above all make good instruments. I would also add to the list Oakwood Instruments, Paul Shippey and Kai Tonjes, all based here in England. All make excellent octave mandolas. I still regret selling my Oakwood 'original' short-scale OM - probably my favourite of those I have owned. Oakwood tend to be a bit more expensive than others but their workmanship is excellent and they tend to use expensive and unusual wood, hence the price I guess.

Both Shippey and Tonjes are now specialsing in carved top OMs, I understand, which puts their price a bit higher, but great value if you want a carved-top (which I do). Fylde make a range of styles and their OM style I prefer is the Touchstone, as played by Bertram. Enjoy whatever you end up buying!

[Shelagh Moore]

grandomando and dagger,

With regard to the scale length, the shorter scale is probably better for melody playing. I have rather large hands though and the Buchanan felt a little cramped for me because of that. However, build quality was excellent. The short scale necessitates quite heavy strings (around 13-52 for GDAE octave tuning if my memory serves well) and, with the fixed bridge, I think this contributed to its rich, rounded sound. I am a little sorry I sold it now!

The Hathway was a very plain, undecorated instrument without binding but the build quality was good and the sound was sweet.

The Fylde also had excellent build quality and the typical, ringing Fylde sound helped by the slight induced arch in the top.

I had two others in the past, a John Le Voi, which was nicely made and rather similar in sound to the Buchanan and a Terry Docherty, which was by far the most expensive with a full, refined sound but with which I never really "bonded". So expensive does not always mean right for one!

The Moon that I have now is one of the early ones and has a more comfortable scale length for me and a decent all-round sound. This is also quite a plain instrument although it has a nice flamed maple back. Its top has sunk a millimeter or so over the years, so far as I can see because the bracing was shaved a little too thin near the rim. but is still acceptable and now stable and, since I picked it up locally at a very good price on Gumtree, including a nice flight case, I can live with that.

The necks of all of these seemed comfortable to me and not too thick... but as I said, my hands are quite large.

[David Currie]

Grandomando,

I have a Hathway custom short-scale OM. I play melody exclusively and the 18" scale Paul made for me has proved an excellent choice in terms of play-ability. He said 18" would be okay but the longer length - his standard is 20", I think - would give a better sound. I also opted for a Cedar top for a slightly mellower sound. I'm very pleased with it. Sometimes at a jam I think the spruce top might cut through a little more but generally people are very complimentary of the tone. A few months ago I tried octave tuning on the G and D courses and when I contacted Paul he sent me by return of post and free of charge a new saddle (zero fret in play so no need for a new nut). I've found the octave tuning has 'brightened' the G in particular where I found the 52 gauge sounded a little clunky in unison. Fit of the instrument is very good and there are only minor finish issues.

I agree with others that Hobgoblin in London is an excellent place to try out a good range of mandolin family instruments and they are only too happy to find you a stool and leave you to explore what they have in store.

Best wishes in your quest.

David

[Dagger Gordon]

No financial interest or anything else (other than to say I know Thomas Buchanan - he used to live in my local town but has been in England for some years), you might be interested to know that Hobgoblin does have both a Fylde and a Buchanan for sale at the moment for well within your budget.

http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/produ...AdditionalInfo

http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/produ...AdditionalInfo

[onawhim]

Hi - I have a Paul Hathway cedar top mando and I love it. I emailed Paul from his website and asked to visit to look and he arranged a date. I went and he had several set up and left me to it. I fell in love with the one I purchased - but at no point did I feel it would have been awkward if I hadn't bought one. It was a great experience and Paul has a workshop in a room where you can see the instruments in various stages of development. He's in north london so its within your reach.

[Shelagh Moore]

Yes... that's how I bought the Hathway I had too... very good and helpful.

[Martin Jonas]

There's a Kai Tonjes OM for sale in Leeds in the classifieds. No financial interest, and it may not be available anymore as the seller says he is also listing it on Ebay.

Link

Martin

[Mandophyte]

Richard,

With regard to the scale length, the shorter scale is probably better for melody playing. I have rather large hands though and the Buchanan felt a little cramped for me because of that. However, build quality was excellent. The short scale necessitates quite heavy strings (around 13-52 for GDAE octave tuning if my memory serves well) and, with the fixed bridge, I think this contributed to its rich, rounded sound.

I am a little sorry I sold it now!

But I'm not!

Best Wishes,

[Shelagh Moore]

...

[Shelagh Moore]

But I'm not!

Aha! (brain approaches something resembling sentience!).

Hope you're still enjoying it!

[southcoastsounds]

Perhaps I'm being naive but I really find it very difficult to tell difference between the sound of various woods. It seems to me that sound is going to be much more affected by different modes of construction :shape of body, scale length, internal strutting etc.

It would be interesting to do a sort of blind tasting in which the same design of mandolin could be tried in different woods. I suspect that all things being equal the wood may not make a much difference as we might think.

[Bertram Henze]

It would be interesting to do a sort of blind tasting in which the same design of mandolin could be tried in different woods. I suspect that all things being equal the wood may not make a much difference as we might think.

Frequently opened can of worms. I suspect that different woods have different behavior in the building process to be countered by the luthier with different construction measures. Wherefore all things can never be equal, and we'll never find out.

[grandomando]

Thanks again for your input.

That Tonjes! It's really killing me that I just can't go and try it! I am under the impression that Tonjes builds a great intrument, and that one seems like a bargain — however, my OM's current scale length is 510cm (which is excellent for my purposes) and that one is a bit longer. Secondly, I think the clip is making it a bit thinner sounding than it probably. However, it is just about the most attractive looking OM I have ever seen in this price range.

I might be crazy enough to travel quite a bit to try out different things while I'm over there in the UK. Oakwood's Meridians are meant to have larger bodies, so I'd like to give that one a go. But the more I listen to Buchanans (online) the more I like them! They seem to have a lot of warmth. I think the sound I'm looking for is deep, warm, resonant and a tiny bit nasal (not guitar-ey), in that order :D I can't seem to find a good clip of a Fylde, though.

In regards to tone woods, I must leave that up to the builders, apparently. I was curious partly because there's a rosewood Buchanan in the Eagle Music online shop, but normally Buchanans seem to have maple backs. Fiddles and small mandos are often built out of maple, and guitars out of mahogany/rosewood/etc. Mandolas seem to be stranded somewhere in the middle. I'd love to understand why! I guess have something to chat about with all these luthiers.

I think my knowledge of tailpieces/saddles and their significance is lacking. Is there a major difference between the two?

[Lord of the Badgers]

interesting thread this - lots of interesting opinions. My fiddle player knows Paul Shippey - I'd love to convince myself to have one of his citterns...
Me? A 19yr old Davidson mandolin (carved - amazingly Phil remembered buying the sycamore it's made from), and a Buchanan Zouk. Love em both, but the Buchanan is just so damn playable. I appear to be a loyal patron of a certain above-mentioned chain in Bristol. Nothing beats trying them out. If I hadn't, my mandolin choice would've been a bad one I can tell you now...

[Mandophyte]

Hope you're still enjoying it!

Very much thankyou!