Playing approach for tunes with a whistle and fiddle

[BloozeGit]

Hi folks,

I just did some St Patrick's gigs with a newly-formed group comprising a guitarist/singer, a fiddler, a whistle/flute player, a percussionist and myself on mandolin. We do a mix of modern songs with some Irish connection (Corrs, U2, Pogues etc) as well as traditional tunes.

After joining this group I've enlarged my repertoire of tunes and during practice it sounds fine, but when the adrenaline kicks in on stage the tempo starts to sky-rocket and at some point I find that the mandolin just sounds "plinky" in the mix, especially since it's the same register as the fiddle and the whistle sits right on top of it. I'm starting to wonder if I should rethink my approach to this whole thing instead of trying to match them note-for-note, where tunes are concerned.

Does anyone else who plays in a similar ensemble hear it this way as well? I've been experimenting with some rhythm playing behind the fiddle and whistle but I don't see very much precedent in using a mandolin for this, unless any of you can enlighten me. Should I just give up and get an octave mandolin or bouzouki?

[xiledscot]

Hi there...........It is one of the reasons that I started playing Tenor Banjo! Unfortunately it is not an exact science.Octave Mandolin,Bouzouki and TB provide the necessary change of register,but I have found it depends very much on which tune.
I have found that playing some tunes on the TB is not as easy,certainly not at speed,as playing Mandolin.The wider fret spacing and fingering in general, if tuned GDAE as mine is,is definitely prohibitive.A lot of OM and Bou. players tend to play vamping chords rather than play the melody or harmony.
Having said all that....there are also occasions when the Mandolin is the instrument to play.
It is horses for courses and there is no correct or incorrect solution.
Working it all out is half the fun.It helps if you have sympathetic and flexible guys to work with.
To answer your last question..........don't give up!

[Randi Gormley]

fwiw, the gig i was at yesterday was 3 fiddlers, 2 bodhrans, 2 flutes/whistles, a guitarist, mandolin/bouzouki and me on straight mandolin; one of the bodhran players also plays whistle and guitar and sings. my mandolin (which was actually a bandolim with a larger body and a ringier tone) seemed to help fill up the background notes - a different texture to the tune, as it were. i found the bouzouki seemed kind of plinky in the mix, actually. so I'd stick to the mandolin. I dunno, maybe you could work something out with the fiddler to do alternate notes (he goes high, you go low or vice versa) or I'd change the pick or the strings to get a deeper, warmer sound. just my thoughts.

[mikeyes]

Randy has a good point, you are in a band and should work with your band members to make your mandolin be an equal partner. Another thing is that you really need a good monitoring system to hear what is going on in the mix and I hope you have someone who know what they are doing with the sound system, it makes a big difference.

One of the things a band can do is to not play every instrument every time. Mandolins can be used for a lot of things including melody, counter melody, rhythm and incidental background. If you are backing up a singer, you have a lot of leeway and while I play a lot of tenor banjo, mandolins are more versatile. (I also play mandolin and GDAE tenor guitar in our band for a difference in timbre.)

Talk to your band mates and try out things. You are not obliged by the Session police to play a tune a certain way, you're in a band, so you can do anything you want

Mike Keyes

[foldedpath]

I'm starting to wonder if I should rethink my approach to this whole thing instead of trying to match them note-for-note, where tunes are concerned.

I can relate to this, because I had similar issues in a previous trio where I played mandolin along with a fiddler and a guitar player. We played mostly Irish traditional instrumental music with a few excursions into "Gypsy" Eastern European music. I had that same problem with doubling the fiddle line, where the mandolin just became a "plink" at the start of each note, not really adding all that much to the group... aside from the fiddler and I covering for each other, when one of us would forget where we were in a tune.


The solution -- which we worked on, but never completely mastered -- was in spending much more of our rehearsal time arranging tunes, so there would be a mix of doubled melody and trading of melody/backing between fiddle and mandolin. The fiddle was still the lead instrument in most tunes, but there would be sections where the fiddler would back off and drone, and let the mandolin take the lead. Or I'd fall back to counterpoint or chordal backup. We even brought in some harmonies in some tunes... which is anathema for straight Irish 'trad, but you can get away with it in a band.

It does take much more rehearsal time to do this, and it increases the potential for screw-ups at a gig, when the arrangements get complicated. You also need someone in the band who is a good arranger. I contributed a few ideas, but my fiddle partner was a professional classical/pop band arranger in a former life, so he did most of the heavy lifting there. And again, we never completely mastered doing this, mostly because we never had enough rehearsal time during the lifetime of the band. It's much more time-intensive than just playing a set of tunes together, like you'd do in an informal pub session.

I've been experimenting with some rhythm playing behind the fiddle and whistle but I don't see very much precedent in using a mandolin for this, unless any of you can enlighten me. Should I just give up and get an octave mandolin or bouzouki?

There is some precedent out there, but you have to look for it among all the other approaches to playing this music. It's easier to see in the smaller groups like duos and trios. Check out this clip of Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill, where Dennis (who usually backs on guitar) is playing mandolin, and alternating between doubling melody with the fiddler, and a more chordal-based approach:

Skip ahead to 1:10 in the video to bypass the chatter:



And here's another example of combined melody/backing on mandolin by Quentin Cooper from a video I posted recently (especially towards the end). This is more of an informal "mixing it up" approach to mandolin, instead of a formal arrangement:

[Steve L]

You might want to check out Marla Fibish's band Three Mile Stone and listen to how she integrates the mando into the group. Really nice music and playing. Luke Plumb's playing in the Scottish band Shooglenifty is well worth your attention as well.

[JeffD]

I recently acquired a Weber Soprano mandolin. So I play above the fiddle. Very cool sound, up where only whistles fly. Recently played unison with a button box accordion, playing melody an octave above. It was glorious.

[mikeyes]

As you can see, there are no "rules" for the mandolin. If the music sounds good, it is good. Mandolins, which have been around at least as long as banjos in the Itrad scene have not had a lot of role models to box in the technique. Instead there are a number of players who are taking the mandolin to a different direction from the banjo and using the unique qualites of the mandolin to make interesting and exciting music. If you read the Marla Fibish interview on Mick Mahoney's site you will see that she had few models and simply went on her own with a good idea in her head as to how the music should sound.

I had not seen that Martin Hayes/Dennis Cahill video, but it is terrific. That is the stuff I would like to do!

Mike Keyes

[mickmando]

Have a look at some of the early Planxty vid's out on youtube , Andy Irvine is playing mandolin and competing with Pipes and a Bouzouki and guitar. The secret seems to be if you are playing in a band , take some practice time and do some arrangments that will highlight the individual instruments , rather than all bashing out the same notes at the same time , every instrument has it's strengths and weakness's.

[BloozeGit]

Thanks for all the great insights folks! Like mickmando said, I don't see any point in bashing out the same notes at the same time, so it's back to the woodshed to work on tunes and figure new ways to play them. Not sure if we'll get any gigs before the next St Patrick's but I sure hope I'll have something worked out by then!

In the meanwhile, if a good OM comes up I might still have to give it some thought...

[whistler]

One of the things a band can do is to not play every instrument every time. Mandolins can be used for a lot of things including melody, counter melody, rhythm and incidental background.

Yes - there are lots of backup options as well as melody. But one thing I particularly emjoy when I get the chance is playing melody together with one other player - in a session or in a band context. It becomes like a musical conversation, where you can mimic or respond to one another's ornamentation, inflections and variations. You can easily incorporate this into band arrangements - with or without guitar backing.

Can the guitarist flatpick melody? (If not, can you persuade him/her to learn?) Mandolin and guitar playing together in unison (or melody and countermelody) make a great sound; an occasional mandolin solo with guitar backing (or vice versa) could also be nice. Another option is to have the guitar drop out and let the mandolin take up the sole backing role for a tune.

As a contrast to the finer textures, there's nothing wrong with sometimes having all three 'melody' instruments playing in unison, with the mandolin coming through as just a 'plink'.

[Bren]

For a plinktastic mandolin/whistle combo, listen to Antoine Gauthier on les Chauffeurs des pieds track on the Mandolin Cafe MP3 downloads.

le Petit Prince Charles va-ta-au carnaval

If that doesn't inspire you, what will?

[JeffD]

I really love the sound of mandolin in unison with a fiddle, however. When both are well played its a good sound.