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Thread: Tune tempos

  1. #1
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    Default Tune tempos

    How fast do you play jigs, reels, horn pipes and polkas?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Tune tempos

    At a dance I'll play at the dancer's speed. For fun, I'll play them slower and experiment with ornamentation. I find 'fast music' a little boring if I'm just listening to it...

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    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    What Eddie says! Play at the speed the dancer wants when playing for dancing. I had a young mandolin pupil recently who is an excellent Highland dancer and I would often get her to set the tempo, even as far as dancing while I played, she setting the tempo and I following.
    At a ceilidh here on Saturday night my band played a set we often play, Kildare Fancy, Boys of Bluehill and Harvest Home; we played the first 2 at a fairly sedate pace - no one was dancing but just listening, then we speeded up the final section of Harvest Home, just to show we could, I suppose! it went down well.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    This from a book of tunes played by Packie Byrne. His suggestions as to tempo.
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    Registered User xiledscot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    What the other guys say!!
    If you want the time signature???

    Jigs are 6/8 time,Slip jigs are 9/8 time,reels can be 2/2 or 4/4, but...Hornpipes are 4/4 with a bit of a bounce.
    Polka's are 2/4

    However the type of music encourages improvisation but as has been said already very very very fast music is pointless.
    D MAC S

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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    This subject has come up several times in the discussions over at http://www.thesession.org - you might find some enlightenment there.

    A few points to consider:

    1. There is a limit to how fast or slow you can play a tune before it loses its rhythmic character, but the range in between may be quite wide;

    2. Different players have different habitual speeds that they play at, depending on their musical influences (e.g. Donegal vs. Clare, Paddy Keenan vs. Willie Clancy), individual preference, technical ability etc.;

    3. One player may be able to play, say, a reel, with the right rhythmic 'lift' at 70 bpm, 160 bpm or anything in between. Another (less experienced) player may struggle to keep control of the rhythm outside the range of, say, 90-110 bpm;

    4. A small increase in bpm can feel and sound like a big increase in tempo;

    5. Jigs tend to be played at a somewhat higher 'metronome setting' than reels because they have 75% fewer notes per beat. (Try going from a jig straight into a reel, keeping the same pulse; if you play the jig at a moderate pace, the reel will seem fast);

    6. When you play for dancing, dancers will often request a very specific tempo (They won't necessarily ask for bpm, but they'll ask you to speed up or slow down until you hit the 'magic' speed); in other situations, you can play at whatever speed you like.

    7. Playing at faster tempos (provided you are below your 'technical ceiling') might be good for emphasising the rhythm; playing at slower tempos gives you the time to choose how you play each note, or exactly which notes you play.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    My experience with our fiddler is that if you can recognize the tune its not fast enough.
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    On certain tunes, I'll pick as fast as the accompaniment can handle. That means the band members need to be able to effectively provide a good groove to the tune. If the tune is too fast for even 1 member, then it's too fast. Nothing worse than a guitar picker who can't handle a tempo and then resorts to a thwack.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    On certain tunes, I'll pick as fast as the accompaniment can handle. .
    Thats kind of counter intuitive - I mean, in my experience the accompaniment can be played much faster than the melody. The limit is more often the melody player and not the backup.

    But perhaps I misunderstand.
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    Perhaps I was not clear.

    It all depends on the tune and the accompanists. A grass tune like Daybreak In Dixie, I think, needs to be played fast. I would hope to pick it as fast as can be done with a good, backing groove - very important -, this. If the guitar falls into just slamming chords with no runs, rhythmic groove because that is all he/she can do at that speed, then it's too fast.

  14. #11

    Default Re: Tune tempos

    The OP refers to dance tunes... Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes, Polkas...

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    Perhaps I was not clear.

    It all depends on the tune and the accompanists. A grass tune like Daybreak In Dixie, I think, needs to be played fast. I would hope to pick it as fast as can be done with a good, backing groove - very important -, this. If the guitar falls into just slamming chords with no runs, rhythmic groove because that is all he/she can do at that speed, then it's too fast.
    Yeah, I think this is one of those core distinctions between Bluegrass and Irish/Scottish etc. dance tunes.... the role of the guitar player is different.

    In Bluegrass (and other Americana genres), the guitar player is expected to lay down a solid groove; a rhythm foundation for the other players. There is a degree of independence in that notion of a "solid groove."

    In the Irish etc. dance music tradition, guitar accompaniment isn't independent like that. A good guitarist is expected to follow the rhythm pulse laid down by the melody players. If the fiddlers are playing faster than the guitarist can handle, then it's the guitarist's job to drop out, because the role of guitar isn't as central in this music as it is in Bluegrass. The rhythm pulse is inherent in the tunes. Any backing is secondary, at best

    It took me a while to figure that out, when I first started backing fiddlers and attending sessions as a guitar backer, and it's something that I see many guitar players from Bluegrass, OldTime, and Folk backgrounds struggle with also. It's one of the reasons why guitar players tend to be second-class citizens at many 'trad sessions. The really good guitar backers -- with open ears listening for the rhythm pulse of the melody players -- are few and far between.

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    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    Sure you can play them at any speed, and some prefer them fast, although for no good musical reason. Too many of the CDs I hear these days, especially bluegrass, seem founded on the presumption that if you play the tunes really fast, your audience will think of you as a virtuoso, which also suggests that you'll sell more records and get more respect from the musical community. Whoever started that trend, misses something essential to the tunes themselves.

    I'm not against a good rollicking tune played a mile a minute. But choose it carefully.

    Who will deny that every song has its own breathing rate? For just one obvious example, hornpipes quickly lose their essential bounce and transmute into quasi-reels when played at contra dance speed.

    We most often play dances where the callers (almost all of them professionals) ask us to stick to a general 108-112 bpm. That suits us just fine, and it lends itself to some very carefully assembled dance sets, which preclude lots of great old time and Celtic tunes that bounce more slowly than that. We occasionally play dances where the caller keeps asking us to increase the speed until, it seems, the tune loses its innate character and the dancers quit early from sheer exhaustion. Some callers really do believe that turning a dance into a sprint is the best way to play it. I have also listened to self-confident members of other dance bands declare that ANY tune can be adapted to ANY dance speed. Sure, fine, but it doesn't always sound good, and the dances will be much more fun for both the band and the dancers if the breathing rate of the tune sets match the bpm.
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    Interestingly enough, I find that the skill level of the leader sets the pace if there are no dancers around to do so. If I'm in session with, say, someone who's won all-Ireland, the tunes often tend to be a little slower than when I'm in session with people who haven't mastered the pulse/speed difference. One of the leaders of our intermediate session can certainly play at blistering speed, but he likes to make even reels comfortable so he can put in ornamentation and do counter-melody.
    One thing I've noticed, recently, is that the higher-level players in our circle play hornpipes faster than reels (or appear to do so) and slides slower than reels. Don't know if that's fashion, local tradition or just the way you're supposed to do it.
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    Default Re: Tune tempos

    Whenever this discussion comes up, I get depressed.

    I love this music. I HATE having to play it all the time at a breakneck pace. It sound so sloppy. It just robs it of its beauty. I can't seem to get that idea across to the people I play with. Anything less than 120 bpm is "funnerial".

    Maybe I should just switch to plying the blues.

    *sigh*
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