oldtime mandolin workshop ideas?

[Jim Garber]

Well, I agree to a point, but if you go back far enough, there seems to have been two purposes to what we refer to as old-time. There are the songs, essentially ballads, like Omie Wise and so on, and there are the fiddle tunes, which most people consider "old-time." These were almost exclusively performed as dance tunes, and sure, while you may get some guys sitting down and picking away at them, the purpose was to drive country dances, of whatever form they may take.

And if you go even further back in time, you can say that about just any kind of music. At one point there was no such think as "classical" music. Many classical instrumental pieces were based on dance forms and others on songs and ballads, many from a folk tradition.

It is good to bring up the connection to dance, tho, in the light of our OP's question. As a fiddler who plays for dancers, I often try to work on phrasing and rhythms that give dancers a lift and try to transfer that same feeling to the mandolin in my playing. In fact I think that intention can be a strong key to the way to impart a strong old time feel to mandolin playing in this tradition.

[Charlieshafer]

And if you go even further back in time, you can say that about just any kind of music. At one point there was no such think as "classical" music.

Makes one want to start up a log-beating forum. In truth, though, that's the fun of all this; there's not only no "right" answer in tracing musical lineages, there's probably no answer at all. Hey, we can all be college professors!

[Jim Garber]

That is what I like: "no answer at all."

The reality of it is we play this music because we enjoy it. I think in leading a workshop conveying the excitement and enthusiasm we feel toward playing this music is primary.

[Caleb]

Someone said earlier that we are the ones that came up with all these labels (old time, etc.) for the music. If you went back in time to the folks who were playing what we call "old time," they'd just tell you they were playing their music. Same as if you went back further to what we call "classical." It goes on and on.

I just tend to like what sounds "old": sometimes that's a fiddle tune, sometimes Celtic, sometimes a Cowboy Song, etc. For fun today, and with all this on my mind, I started an "Old Time" Pandora station and was surprised at some of the stuff that came on. Not that Pandora is any real authority on what passes for old time, but it just makes me realize that we all can have our own definitions of these things.

[mandolirius]

Hey thanks all! I read all the responses and bookmarked the links everyone posted. There's certainly more than enough material there to get me through a two-hour workshop. As someone remarked, it goes by pretty quickly if you're prepared. Introduction to the workshop, questions, a break.....two hours isn't an awfully long time.

The context, which Jim asked about, is just the Victoria Bluegrass Association's ongoing workshop program. The purpose is to foster more interaction between the pro and semi-pro musicians and the club members, most of whom play. Old time has gained tremendous popularity in our region and many (or at least we hope) primarily bluegrass players are interested in learning the style. I know the skill level will be wide-ranging but I don't think I'll have to cover parts of the mandolin or how to hold it and so on.

The other goal is to provide a source of income for these musicians, most of whom can definitely use it. It's a good example, in my biased opinion, of the sort of thing a local bluegrass association should be doing.

Looks like I've got a lot of reading to do so thanks again everyone and feel free to continue the discussion in whatever direction it should take. I have over two months to prepare so let the thread meander. Actually I like the direction it's taking. It's nice to see some passionate points of view regarding old time music. My own old time album (The Snake Sessions - a tribute to Snake Chapman) will be out by then, so I may teach one of the tunes off of it.

[Charlieshafer]

Excellent! There is indeed a huge old-time resurgence up in the pacific northwest. Nice program you got there!

Romero banjos is what, 2 hours away? Horsefly, I believe? Of course, it may be one of those "can't get there from here" things...

[doc holiday]

Horsefly is about 10hrs away on the mainland. But Jason does make grand instruments & he & Pharis are inspiring musicians.
Mandolirius, You're a lucky man...with the assortment of music in Victoria. I met Miriam & Shanti at Nimblefingers and they were my discovery of the week. Both great musicians & that Shanti can kill it on the banjo. When you follow Bill Evans (the banjo Bill...not piano) on stage & then make an impression on the audience...that's notable. Good luck with your workshop...& yeah Caleb K is pretty defining as a OT mandolin player.

[mandolirius]

Horsefly is about 10hrs away on the mainland. But Jason does make grand instruments & he & Pharis are inspiring musicians.
Mandolirius, You're a lucky man...with the assortment of music in Victoria. I met Miriam & Shanti at Nimblefingers and they were my discovery of the week. Both great musicians & that Shanti can kill it on the banjo. When you follow Bill Evans (the banjo Bill...not piano) on stage & then make an impression on the audience...that's notable. Good luck with your workshop...& yeah Caleb K is pretty defining as a OT mandolin player.

Jason and Pharis lived on the island before moving up to Horsefly. Had lots of great jams with them. As for Shanti and Miriam, I just finished recording the Snake Chapman tribute with them this weekend. Miriam's also the fiddler in the BG band I'm in. She's a delight to play with, a real quick study and toally into bluegrass fiddle. I keep feeding her stuff so we can do it in the band. Mostly Monroe, some Reischman, a couple of my tunes. I'm enjoying having her while we can. The other band she plays in with Shanti (and Amanda Blied) is The Sweet Lowdown is poised to really take off, I think.

[catmandu2]

Makes one want to start up a log-beating forum. In truth, though, that's the fun of all this; there's not only no "right" answer in tracing musical lineages, there's probably no answer at all. Hey, we can all be college professors!

Charlie, c'mon over to the "medieval mando" group!

(if it's pedants you want--there are plenty of'm in early music ; )

[Charlieshafer]

Charlie, c'mon over to the "medieval mando" group!

(if it's pedants you want--there are plenty of'm in early music ; )

Only if members have to wear period clothing and act out plague suffering.

[catmandu2]

Btw, I apologize for using the term pedant--and I wasn't implying any such tendencies among cafe-ites ... only sardonically referring to the broad opportunities available to the early music scholar

[JeffD]

Only if members have to wear period clothing and act out plague suffering.

A friend of mine did a book club meeting at her home about the book "The Wonder Years", a book that take splace during the bubonic plague. She got up a bunch of apples from an orchard nearby, apples that had fallen to the ground. Apples in bad shape. She placed milk crates full of these rotten and rotting apples around the room, and the whole room started to smell. Not a horrible smell, really, but not pleasant. But apparently the smell is close to what it would be like if you were in the midst of the dead and dying plague victims.


If you PM me I will share how we got rid of the fruit flies.

[Charlieshafer]

Man, this thread gets better and better.

[allenhopkins]

A suggestion: invest $20 in Mike Seeger's old-time mandolin course from Homespun Tapes. Should evoke some ideas, and I can't think of a better authority on the subject than the late Mike S.

[mandolirius]

A suggestion: invest $20 in Mike Seeger's old-time mandolin course from Homespun Tapes. Should evoke some ideas, and I can't think of a better authority on the subject than the late Mike S.

Might not be a bad idea, considering I am getting paid for this. Now whether the pay will be much more than the double-sawbuck investment, who knows. I can see it saving me a whole bunch of work though, and that's never a bad thing.

[mandolirius]

Well, I did order Mike Seeger's course. I figured it wouldn't be a bad idea to see how he approaches teaching oldtime mandolin. Also busy compiling a list of the resources you all so kindly provided me with. Tomorrow is my deadline for the copy describing the workshop. Here's what I've got so far:

Old Time Mandolin - Michael Brooks

This workshop (for Beg/Int level players) will begin with an overview of mandolin in old time music, including recorded examples and a discussion of the differences between old time and bluegrass styles. Playing techniques will be demonstrated through the teaching of two or three (as time permits) tunes. A list of resources for more information on old time mandolin will be distributed but NO TAB, so please bring a recorder.

* the workshop will be recorded and a CD copy provided if you don't have your own recording device.


I can alter things but cannot lengthen it very much, due to space restrictions. If you have any suggestions for the wording/description of the workshop, now's the time to offer them. After tomorrow, it's too late. Thanks again to everyone for your input.

[Jim Garber]

Michael: It sounds good to me. I certainly would attend if I were there. Your description is clear and concise.

[JeffD]

Sounds great. Wish I could attend actually.

[Markus]

Sounds like a great workshop.

This was a fun thread to read after seeing Foghorn in Wednesday. The northwest is really blessed with OT talent, glad you are spreading it even further.

[woodwizard]

Keep up the good work Good Music any OLDTIME!

[mandolirius]

Thanks for the votes of confidence, but it sounds to me as if some of you guys could be putting on a workshop like this yourselves.

[mandolirius]

Here's an unmastered version of one of the tunes from the soon-to-be-released tribute to Snake Chapman. This is "Coburn Fork of Big Creek":

COBURN FORK MX1.mp3

[mandolirius]

Here's a pic of us posing after the session was done. We actually had four mics in a cluster, each one pointing at the instrument it was mainly meant to pick up. Live off the floor, one track, no mixing. We really wanted to record the album that way. It just felt like the right thing to do.

[Jim Garber]

Very cool tune and nice playing. I don't hear any banjo on that cut. Also, does she play bluegrass style banjo? I guess Chapman is on that oldtime/bluegrass cusp of fiddling?

[mandolirius]

There's banjo. The mp3 is pretty compressed but it's there. The original Snake recordings to have a kind of pre-bluegrass picked style of banjo. A lot of it sounds two-finger to me. Shanti plays both styles and does do some clawhammer on other cuts.