Tabs vs music notation

[Bertram Henze]

For someone who reads music notation, deciding to "learn" tabs is like a bike racer deciding to use a three-wheeler.

It's more like this:

[Austin Bob]

5) whether improvising or reading, we should work toward mentally "hearing" the sound.

Nicely put. I was once trying to learning a song from a classically trained violinist, and he stopped me in the middle of trying to finger the notes while looking at the music. He told me to whistle or hum the tune before even picking up the instrument. I try, but I still suck at it. I played for 25 years before I ever tried to read music, so I play by ear, and kinda sorta read music at a Dick and Jane level.

But to get back to the tab vs. notation discussion, I still feel each has value. But say for instance, you had never heard Brubeck's Take Five. I'm not sure if someone could ever figure it out with just tab.

[Randy Smith]

Hello all,


Being new to the mandolin, I didn't know about the tabs, and never got into them when I was learning guitar.

I can read music and have been practicing picking irish tunes using sheet music to get familiar with moving around the fret, but I see alot of music(on this site) in tab notation.

My question: Is this something I should switch over to, from an emphasis standpoint? Is there an inherent benefit to tabs if I can already read music or stick to notation?

thanks,
Jorgey

If you're playing Irish tunes, stay with notation. Since Irish fiddlers virtually never leave the first position, you won't need tablature to help you with fingering. Besides, reading notation makes the books of hundreds of Irish tunes (O'Neill's *Music of Ireland* and *1001* immediately accessible. No computer program is necessary to change a tab into notation.

[JeffD]

If you're playing Irish tunes, stay with notation. Since Irish fiddlers virtually never leave the first position, you won't need tablature to help you with fingering. Besides, reading notation makes the books of hundreds of Irish tunes (O'Neill's *Music of Ireland* and *1001* immediately accessible. No computer program is necessary to change a tab into notation.

I agree with that. Irish fiddle music was an early passion and being able to read notation was central to being able to get up to speed with the music.

[Dr H]

I learned notation first, as a child, and picked up tab much later on. What has always mystified me is that tab is usually presented as a easier alternative to learning standard notation. But, really, it isn't.

For starters, notation IS a form of tablature, and one which has been codified, slimmed down, and standardized over centuries of use. It evolved from earlier, less clear or universal systems of tablature: take a look at a medeival songbook written in neumes, or one of John Dowland's lute pieces in the original manuscript sometime.

As plenty of people have pointed out, notation is far more universal than tab -- it can be applied to any instrument, immediately. And notation packs more information into a smaller space (with fewer symbols) in most cases.

But the big tab catch is that tab is not standardized and notation is. Indeed, that was one of the problems in the Rennaisance which eventually led to the development of modern notation: every lutenist (for example) had devised his own system of tab, and only he and his immediate students could decipher it with any facility. This problem still exists with modern tab, where each publisher has his own quirks: one book's symbol for a string bend is another book's symbol for an accent, and a third book's symbol for a hammer-on. One might pick up 8 different songbooks and find 8 different symbols for a pull-off.

What all this boils down to is that it's no harder to learn standard notation than it is to learn a given system of tab.

Any system of tab can be every bit as arcane as the most obscure aspects of notation -- and more arbitrary. Given that notation is universal, expending the same amount of effort learning notation as one would have to expend learning a particular system of tab pays greater dividends, since it is applicable in more areas.

The main reason I use tab at all is that so many recent publications (particularly for guitar) exist only in tab, and it's usually less work to learn the tab -- even with the publishers idiosyncratic quirks -- than to transcribe a bunch of tunes into standard notation, one note at a time.

I wouldn't tell anyone to not learn to read tab, but I would encourage them to learn the "tab" that is standard notation, first. And if one already reads notes, I can think of very few compelling reasons to "switch" to tab.

[Bernie Daniel]

I learned notation first, as a child, and picked up tab much later on. What has always mystified me is that tab is usually presented as a easier alternative to learning standard notation. But, really, it isn't.

For starters, notation IS a form of tablature, and one which has been codified, slimmed down, and standardized over centuries of use. It evolved from earlier, less clear or universal systems of tablature: take a look at a medeival songbook written in neumes, or one of John Dowland's lute pieces in the original manuscript sometime.

As plenty of people have pointed out, notation is far more universal than tab -- it can be applied to any instrument, immediately. And notation packs more information into a smaller space (with fewer symbols) in most cases.

But the big tab catch is that tab is not standardized and notation is. Indeed, that was one of the problems in the Rennaisance which eventually led to the development of modern notation: every lutenist (for example) had devised his own system of tab, and only he and his immediate students could decipher it with any facility. This problem still exists with modern tab, where each publisher has his own quirks: one book's symbol for a string bend is another book's symbol for an accent, and a third book's symbol for a hammer-on. One might pick up 8 different songbooks and find 8 different symbols for a pull-off.

What all this boils down to is that it's no harder to learn standard notation than it is to learn a given system of tab.

Any system of tab can be every bit as arcane as the most obscure aspects of notation -- and more arbitrary. Given that notation is universal, expending the same amount of effort learning notation as one would have to expend learning a particular system of tab pays greater dividends, since it is applicable in more areas.

The main reason I use tab at all is that so many recent publications (particularly for guitar) exist only in tab, and it's usually less work to learn the tab -- even with the publishers idiosyncratic quirks -- than to transcribe a bunch of tunes into standard notation, one note at a time.

I wouldn't tell anyone to not learn to read tab, but I would encourage them to learn the "tab" that is standard notation, first. And if one already reads notes, I can think of very few compelling reasons to "switch" to tab.

I think you can show more information with "modern day" tablature that many people are aware. For example here is a piece of tab I made up today.

[bratsche]

For someone who reads music notation, deciding to "learn" tabs is like a bike racer deciding to use a three-wheeler.

It's more like this:

Not really. We need a better analogy than either of these. I'm experienced at riding a two-wheeler (if not racing one), so it's just as easy for me to ride a three-wheeler. And I can tell at a quick glance that Bertram's paint-by-number drawing's a horse.

On the other hand, tab, which I'm not versed in, tells me nothing useful at a glance. Actually, it even confuses me, because I first intuitively want to read the tab diagram as a staff, when it's actually a fretboard. I wonder "why does this staff have only four lines?" and then it dawns on me that it isn't a staff. Duh! And then when I realize it's supposed to be the fretboard, and that someone has actually bothered to count the frets, I have to proceed to count the frets myself, which seems like a silly and time-consuming thing to do, but I don't know off the top of my head which note might be found at the Xth fret of such-and-such a string, since when using notation, I just go to the note without thinking about which numbered fret it resides on.

Of course, this thought process took me longer to describe than to actually experience, but still, it wastes enough time to preclude its usefulness for my reading of music.

What is an appropriate analogy for something that is counter-intuitive to the way one is comfortably accustomed to? Maybe this one: Notation is something like finding directions to a certain address by reading a map, and tab is more like relying on directions like "Turn left at the second street after the stop sign, and then go down to the eighth house on the right." That's not perfect either, but analogies always fall short. (shrug)

bratsche

[Bertram Henze]

I can tell at a quick glance that Bertram's paint-by-number drawing's a horse.

You're right, I just wanted to give everybody a chance

How about this one:

[Bernie Daniel]

....What is an appropriate analogy for something that is counter-intuitive to the way one is comfortably accustomed to? Maybe this one: Notation is something like finding directions to a certain address by reading a map, and tab is more like relying on directions like "Turn left at the second street after the stop sign, and then go down to the eighth house on the right." That's not perfect either, but analogies always fall short. (shrug) bratsche

OK. I understand you're point is here that you have to look at the notation as well as the tab to get the value of the note and other information. But the problem is that is not true. The horse head/paint-by-numbers analogy is not just poor it is incorrect (with all due respect).

Pull up the .pdf that I attached to post #56 in this string and point out to me what information is lacking in the tab line compared to the standard notation line. (discounting the fact that I forgot to change the key description to "C" in the text when I transposed it from "F")

[Bertram Henze]

point out to me what information is lacking in the tab line compared to the standard notation line.

It's not about lack of information, it's about digital (written numbers) vs. analog (graphic position) representation, and thus it is about mental economy. Just like a quick glance at your analog watch directly shows if you're late (while a digital watch has you make a calculation), standard notation is a graphical picture of pitch. For many sight-readers used to this, the little numbers in tabs are cumbersome headwork; they are about midway to reading ABC code (yes, I know some can even do that).

I can do with both, but only because I don't sight-read; I use the music sheet until I can play the tune by heart and then throw it away.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

One advantage of notation is that is you can play the notes where ever you want on the fretboard without any interference from the notation itself. With tab, the delivered information is specific fret, so at the least you have to be able to add 7 very quickly to certain notes if you want to play in a different position. I.e., sometimes tab gives too much information. I might play Bernie's example using second position in many places, and with the notation it's transparent to do so. For example, it's a bit of a pain to see 1 3 6 tabbed on the E string and want to play 8 10 on the A and 6 on the E.

There are a few instances where having tab is a good companion, especially with complex passages that pick across strings, with high and low frets. There are ways to indicate all this on std notation, but if it's not a repeating pattern, deciphering it can be a bit cumbersome, whereas tab would instantly give you the RH pattern. Still, pulling the melody out of the tab by sight would be much harder.

Cheers
MRT

[Bernie Daniel]

It's not about lack of information, it's about digital (written numbers) vs. analog (graphic position) representation, and thus it is about mental economy. Just like a quick glance at your analog watch directly shows if you're late (while a digital watch has you make a calculation), standard notation is a graphical picture of pitch. For many sight-readers used to this, the little numbers in tabs are cumbersome headwork; they are about midway to reading ABC code (yes, I know some can even do that). I can do with both, but only because I don't sight-read; I use the music sheet until I can play the tune by heart and then throw it away.

Interesting. I see what you are getting at.

Well I think a big part of it is like most things, one likes what one is most familiar with. I was in band and chorus decades ago in high school and learned to read standard notation on brass and for singing.

But 15 years later I did not start playing guitar and mandolin by the "notes" so I never made the connection between notes on a staff and frets on a fret board I guess.

Tab solves that problem - the fret and the string are shown -- no worry about key signature or flats and sharps -- but of course it is only good for a certain instrument for which it is composed for.

But with digital representation of music (,mid and .abc) it is pretty easy now to quickly compose tab for most instruments and make a nice print out if you want. I find that I sight read tab today exactly like I used to sight read notation in band. So, because I'm used to it I don't really "think" about a "2" on the E-chorus line (F#) I just play it?

Your comment about ABC notation was interesting -- I have often wondered if some folks don't develop a facility to sight read abc just like standard notation.

[Bernie Daniel]

One advantage of notation is that is you can play the notes where ever you want on the fretboard without any interference from the notation itself. With tab, the delivered information is specific fret, so at the least you have to be able to add 7 very quickly to certain notes if you want to play in a different position. I.e., sometimes tab gives too much information. I might play Bernie's example using second position in many places, and with the notation it's transparent to do so. For example, it's a bit of a pain to see 1 3 6 tabbed on the E string and want to play 8 10 on the A and 6 on the E....Cheers
MRT

I agree with that. In fact I often "edit" the tab in TablEdit after going through a few times to get the most efficient way. Then re-save it so I don't have to do it later when I come back to needing a little reminder of how to play the tune.

Of course note on the staff specifying a certain pitch can be played in more than one place on the fret board too?

[Bertram Henze]

I was in band and chorus decades ago in high school and learned to read standard notation on brass and for singing.

But 15 years later I did not start playing guitar and mandolin by the "notes" so I never made the connection between notes on a staff and frets on a fret board I guess.

Ah, that was different for me of course: I learnt to play violin by notation, so the jump to play mandolin by the same notation was not too far - in fact one of the factors that made the mandolin attractive for me at the time.
Guitar, OTOH, has remained a completely alien beast to me. If I had to learn to play it by reading, would I
- prefer guitar tab to make a shortcut, or
- tune the guitar in fifths to make an even bigger shortcut? Hard to say.

[Tobin]

There are a few instances where having tab is a good companion, especially with complex passages that pick across strings, with high and low frets. There are ways to indicate all this on std notation, but if it's not a repeating pattern, deciphering it can be a bit cumbersome, whereas tab would instantly give you the RH pattern. Still, pulling the melody out of the tab by sight would be much harder.

That's precisely how I feel about tablature. It's only good as a companion to the notation, for suggestions on which strings and frets to use. You can always deviate from the tabs (which I often do) if it's easier or makes more sense to use a different combination, especially when moving up the fretboard and across strings. But the notation is important for visualizing what the music should sound like. I've tried playing music strictly from tabs, and I always feel like I'm not getting the full picture.

For me, a good comparison is that tabs are like reading the English language in all caps, with no punctuation or spaces. You can probably make out what it's trying to say, but it just isn't right.

[JeffD]

For sight reading in standard tuning, there is nothing better than standard notation. One can tell at a glance if a given tune is going to be fun to play or not, one can "hear' the tune with the eyes, and even hum it out before picking up the instrument.

For cross tuning, I prefer the tune as it sounds in standard notation with the tune as its fingered in TAB below it.

For general tunebooks in standard tuning, if they feel they have to include TAB, I wish they could just put it all in standard, and then in the second half just repeat it all in TAB. I get really tired of turning pages.

[MikeyG]

"For me, a good comparison is that tabs are like reading the English language in all caps, with no punctuation or spaces. You can probably make out what it's trying to say, but it just isn't right"

I don't think Tobin's comparison is at all fair. Tab certainly can be "RIGHT". Back in 1977, as a beginning mandolin player, I wanted to learn the McReynold's crosspicking style. I found the tablature in Jack Tottle's book to be ideal for this beginner who didn't yet know the mandolin fretboard. Try crosspicking Tottle's "Home Sweet Home" or "Wildwood flower" by looking at the standard notation. A couple of years later, Statman's more comprehensive book was published - and it contained tab notation ONLY, not a single note of standard notation. I say thanks to Oak publications & these fine authors for documenting this unique style for us in such a way as to give access to it for BEGINNERS through tablature.

Mike

[Tobin]

I don't think Tobin's comparison is at all fair. Tab certainly can be "RIGHT".

Perhaps "right" was not the best word to have used. What I was driving at was that it never seems to really convey the full meaning of the music. At least, not in the tab style I typically see. I'm sure with as many variations of tablature that are out there, some will be better than others. But at the end of the day, I can't look at tabs and sing the melody in my head. They're just numbers to show you how to play the notes on the strings/frets. They don't actually give you the notes.

I'm sure it's all a matter of perspective, though. I learned to read standard notation as a child on the piano and brass band instruments. So tablature was never as natural to me as notation. Others will see it the opposite way.

[Jim Garber]

Ah, this discussion rages on!! I lean toward std notation for most music and instruments. I found tho that tab was excellent when i was learning frailing banjo and for fingerpicking patterns on guitar. Overall for folks styles it helps sometimes to have both tab and std notation.

The bottom line is: whatever works for you. Years ago I learned some chord-melody tunes on uke and tenor banjo from a well-known ex-vaudeville star. I taped the lessons but developed my own notation system which used chord diagrams with added single notes indicated. That, in conjunction with the taped music worked out nicely but as something to stand alone, it would not have worked.

[tmsweeney]

I do remember in classical guitar studies our instructor being offended by a performer who recently acquired his masters in guitar performance- for referring to sheet music on some of the pieces he played
the instructors comment was - use sheet music to learn the piece
but to "muster" the piece - you must thoroughly understand it and that means knowing it by heart
now a lot of fiddle tunes can fit on less than one page and most are fairly easy to "groK"
somewhat different than a 40 page guitar concerto or Sor study

I myself can not really site read - but I prefer notation over tab
and I think that is just a familiarity thing

so I think it is correct to say tab is just a newer form of musical notion
all be it limited to fretted stringed instruments

but for a "universal" approach - notation clearly out performs tab
think if a mandolin player wanted to try a flute or trumpet sonata

no need to transcribe - just read the music and play where you know you are supposed to
a tab player would have to convert first, and there would be no way of knowing where the composer intended the note to be played on the fret board.

[Jim Garber]

no need to transcribe - just read the music and play where you know you are supposed to
a tab player would have to convert first, and there would be no way of knowing where the composer intended the note to be played on the fret board.

Early composers (like Bach and the like) didn't usually indicate fingerings anyway. Most printed violin music usually has fingerings and often dynamics indicated by later editors. For some pieces I prefer urtext editions anyway and work out my own fingerings. Just another reason to lean toward std notation for some purposes.

[Bertram Henze]

...work out my own fingerings.

Aha. Your avatar

[Jim Garber]

Bertram... I learned that chord under the tutelage of the Great One, Jethro Burns.

[jmp]

Not to belabor the point, but the main difference is that most of the tab available out there do not capture the rhythms only the pitches. Therefore you really have to know how the tune goes ahead of time to play a tab, however with standard notation you can learn how to play a tune you have never heard before. There is some tab notation that wedges in rhythm but then you are half way to standard notation. Granted, most of the time you do indeed know how the tunes goes ahead of time, so tab can be a fast way to "see" how to play it.

[jmp]

sorry, somehow made a duplicate...can't see how to delete a post.