5-course, tell me about yours?

[steve V. johnson]

Hi folk,

I've never had one, I've met quite a few, I don't really get 'em when I have 'em in hand, but I keep thinking about 'em. I think about a Euro-style instrument with a 20' - 23" scale, with perhaps a slightly wider than usual neck width, one that will chord nicely.

There have been some conversations here about fanned frets to help with intonation, and about string gauges.

Tell me about your experiences with your instruments, their configurations & designs, and the builders who are doing them well now?

Thanks!
stv

[Eddie Sheehy]

Hi Steve, I have a Phil Crump C-III, 5 courses, 25 1/2" scale, deep body. It is tuned CCGGDDaaee to cover Mandocello and OM. Big booming sound... The short scale ones - I had a Sobell for a short while, was a 21" scale and had much lighter strings with a G-based tuning (see Doc Rossi) - too similar to my zouks and OM so I went for the deeper sound of the longer scale. Since I've seen Andy Irvine playing a Bass Bouzouki made by Davey Stewart - Andy tunes his DDAAEEAA but he says it will go down to CCGGDDgg (dropped top course tuning). I tuned my Crump to CCGGDDggdd and played around with it but there are only certain tunes it seems to "fit" with - as backing for vocals... The Mandocello/OM tuning of CCGGDDaaee works well in a Mandolin Orchestra.

[djweiss]

I have both a mandolin and tenor guitar made by Paul Lestock of Arrow Guitar and Mandolins. The mandolin is ~15" scale and is tuned CGDAE and tenor guitar is 22.75" scale and is tuned FCGDA. The tenor gets lots of playing time and I've had no problems with intonation on it.

-DJW

[Markkunkel]

Hi, Steve. Mine is this wonderful Kai Tonjes http://claire-dugue.com/about-kai-tonges cittern, spruce over maple with a 58 cm (22.5") scale length:



Michael Wolf here on the forum was kind enough to sell it to me and it is one I have kept and plan to keep. It's cool looking, set up just right now, and loud and sparkly as it can be. If you can find one of Kai's instruments I'd recommend it highly.

With respect to tunings, I have had a half-dozen of these over the years (a Forster, a Nyberg, a couple of H. Taylors, a Davy Stuart) from 21" to 25.5" scale, and have experimented a bunch with tunings (primarily CGDAE, DGDAE, and GDAEB) and relatedly string gauges. In my experience, even with very good instruments that were 25" or longer (the Forster, Nyberg, and Stuart), I could never get that lower C to work. The best I did was intonated and playable for the first five frets or so, but anything higher up than that went unavoidably sharp. The C was cool but my sense is that you have to have a fanned-fret, maybe 26" tuning for that, and .058+ string gauges (similar to what is required on most guitars, although there are of course exceptions).

I have settled on going for the higher fifths tuning and never looked back. Yes, it requires a .009 on that top course, and yes with some instruments that can be thin, but man, it's nice to play two-octave melody lines in first position, and (again with the right instrument) it's very nice to capo the 7th fret and get CGDAE and a very passable, albeit somewhat longer scale, mandolin. In my ITM days I'd bring the Tonjes as the only mando-family instrument to many gigs and with a little tuning tweaking between songs could do OM stuff as well as mando leads. I love GDAEB on the instruments I've had...of course, it means you stick with a scale no longer than 23" or so.

Good luck in the search...five course instruments are loads of fun.

MK

(and PS...the Culchies CD is getting regular air-time in the CD player, Steve...Great stuff, and just wish we could hear more of your contributions!)

[thistle3585]

Steve,
I'm not sure a short scale is what you are looking for but I have a 14.5" scale 5 string made by Tom Morici tuned CGDAE. I couldn't say enough good things about it and I prefer playing it to anything else. Unfortuantely, I recently went back to taking music lessons and my instructor really doesn't know what to do with it, so I'm playing my eight string. I will be near Bloomington this afternoon at Lake Lemon if you'd like to check it out. I am sending you my cell number via a PM. I'll take it withe and if you're willing to brave the construction then you can come get it.

[steve V. johnson]

Thanks to you all!! Good stuff.

Eddie, of course I know you've met / played / owned a wonderful array of instruments! The big Crump is pretty astounding.
Thanks for the notes on tunings. I haven't seen that one of Andy Irvine's. I'm even more baffled by mandola tuning ;-D than
I am by 5-c instruments, but I expect that if/when I have one of these to mess with, I'll probably start with CGDAE, but when
Vincent Fogarty throws down on his big Joe Foley 5-c in all A's & D's I'm fascinated. (tho I don't get it. ;-D) As I mentioned,
I'm probably headed toward a shorter instrument than my beloved Crump zouk (25.4"). But... nothing is certain.

DJW, I'm always happy to hear about Paul Lestock's instruments! When he came up with his more radical shape (was it called the "G" model?) I was smitten. It's wonderful also to learn that you've used standard 'straight' fretting and have happy intonation.
This is the first 5-c tenor of which I've ever heard! If you could, I'd LOVE to see pictures of these... thanks! And audio, if you have any... (I ask for a little, then ask for more... yep, I do that... ;-) )

I'm interested in how y'all play these. Those who come from mandolin often think along the lines of 'I have a mandola & a mandolin!' while zouk/guitar players think of them differently, and that's more how -I- think, in partial chords. When I play
some octave mandolins I find that if they have a particular sort of note-separation among the courses they don't chord nicely,
except perhaps in that lovely, woody bluegrass, staccato, chop sound. One thing I know for certain is that I'd like access to the more 'Euro' (if you will) sound for chords and partials.

Hi, Mark! I hoped and expected to hear from you, too, because of your long & wide experience with all sorts of CBOMs, thanks!
Thanks also for the kind words on the Culchies' CD! That K-T sure has an exotic look, wow!! So with its length under 23', you're
using that .009 on the top of that one, yes? And a B on the high course, do I have that right? Is the K-T recorded in audio / video? Thanks!

Wow, this is fun!!

Hi, Andrew, thanks! When I think of these things, a lot of times I think I'd like a mandolin or almost-a-mandola-sized one, but
I'd also like a wider nut & string spacing than usual for short ones. I haven't had conversations with luthiers nor players about that aspect of the things, but intuitively I think an instrument could be more elegant, and perhaps more versatile, at the octave-mando length. But I do think about 5-c mandolins a lot. My thoughts actually started at mandolin + 1-c, thinking 'that might be doable...' I have some good friends who have big 5-c zouks and I've not ever been able to get my head around them, but somehow the 5-c thing makes a tad more sense to me at mando scale. Except for that nut-width thing.

I'm not familiar with Tom Morici's work, but that's a beautiful, graceful shape, lovely proportions. The body looks a bit deeper than a more orthodox mandolin design, is it, or am I just imagining that? Does this one chord differently from your mandolin(s), or do you play it as a 'mandolin + 1'? Too bad about your instructor... ;-D

Thanks for the PM! I have a bunch of stuff to finish here before I go up to Indy to play Irish at the Upland Tasting Room (@ 49th & College, 6pm start), and if I can finish up and leave early enough to stop out at the Lake on the way I'll give you a call. If not today, soon I hope. I'm really excited to meet you and the your 5-c Morici, thanks!!

Thanks so much, folks, I deeply appreciate all this!
stv

[Eddie Sheehy]

Oh, and since someone mentioned a sub 20" scale.... I have a 15" scale Vega 10-string cylinderback. CCGGDDaaee - a mini-cittern - though mainly for melody because of the short scale and small frets - the EE is a .009 and pretty tinny... Nice for classical work, giving the choice of Treble and Alto Clef (Mandola). Lacks the power to cut through an Irish jam, though I use it amplified for Contra Dances - strung with Thomastik 164's with GHS Ultra Lite .009 E strings.

[Mandobart]

Steve - I have a 10-string mandolin-dola by little known luthier Tom Jessen. This is the second instrument I have that was built by him and all I can say is the tone and playability exceed that of instruments I've played at three times the cost. It's a 16" scale. Tuned CC-GG-DD-AA-EE, gauges .045, .036, .022, .014 and .010 respectively. D'Addario phosphor-bronze for C, G, D and plain steel for A & E. Use of an Allen cast tailpiece that takes regular ball-end guitar strings is really helpful for this. That's a Steve Bell armrest. Here is a short video:



A little rough, still working out the tune. This has become my main instrument for playing out (I added JJB twin pickup and 1/4" jack in the tail block, just below and treble side of the tail piece). Covers the range of the mandolin, with the extra C course. Larger deeper body and oval hole give it much greater resonance and sustain. Not a bluegrass instrument, but great for Celtic, Americana, rock, blues and Klezmer.

[djweiss]

Thanks to you all!! Good stuff.

DJW, I'm always happy to hear about Paul Lestock's instruments! When he came up with his more radical shape (was it called the "G" model?) I was smitten. It's wonderful also to learn that you've used standard 'straight' fretting and have happy intonation.
This is the first 5-c tenor of which I've ever heard! If you could, I'd LOVE to see pictures of these... thanks! And audio, if you have any... (I ask for a little, then ask for more... yep, I do that... ;-) )

....
Thanks so much, folks, I deeply appreciate all this!
stv

Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aod77dbBuE4

[Beanzy]

Trevor at TAMCO has a really nice looking Lawrence Smart 10 string with fan frets on his site (3rd up from the bottom of the page linked).

[Mandobar]

i'd buy that smart in a minute if i could figure out how to get it to the US.

[Tom Smart]

Mandobar, if you're concerned about import duties, items originally manufactured in the U.S. can be returned to the U.S. duty-free.

[MandoDave1]

I have a wonderful 10-string Apollo Bell cittern built by Nikos Appolonio of Rockport, Maine. I got it from Gruhn's in 2009. The salesman, Billy Jackson, referred to it as the "Cittron," and the name has stuck. Nick keeps his own cittern tuned CGCGC and then relies on the capo as needed. I keep the Cittron tuned CGDAE, and believe me, that low C course will rattle your windows.

[Mandobart]

MandoDave - What's the scale on your cittern? I'm thinking of having a similar instrument built, basically a mandocello with an E course on top.

[Markkunkel]

Yikes...I meant a capo on the fifth fret, of course. With that CGDAE tuning, the scale length is 17", and it works very well. And yes, Steve, those .009s are on the top course.

I'll try to get a sound/video recording in both positions later this week.

Enjoy!

Mark

[klaezimmer]

I have four 5-course instruments, three of which you are likely interested in (one is 7-stringed), two of which I feel qualified to speak of.



The one I use most frequently was made by David Freshwater (recently stopped building, if I am not mistaken) for Lark in the Morning. It is a 15" scale with a 1 5/8" nut, tuned D G D A E, a mandolin with a low D. I use it wherever I would use a mandolin and enjoy the richness of the 5-string chords where available. Although I am from the Bluegrass State, I have little bluegrass in my playing, so the delightful sustain in this instrument does not get in the way of my style. I play folk, rock, country, Israeli folk, pop, contemporary worship and hymn based styles on this instrument. I'm sorry to say that the string gauges are listed on a computer a mile from here, so they are not available for this post.



My favorite that I use second most was made by Glen Reid of Burks Falls, Ontario. It has a 19.625" scale with a nut width in the vicinity of 1.5" to 1 9/16". It is tuned G C G D A, a mandola with a low G. I use it in place of a guitar, particularly sounding nice in the keys of G anc C. The Twelfth Fret in Toronto described it as a 'lively sounding cittern', lively evidently meaning quite responsive. Strumming it like a beginning guitarist gives a very muddy sound. Letting the strum ring through a measure sounds authoritative. A strum followed by picking individual strings to fill out a measure is a nice touch. The scale length allows for melodic fills with some degree of awkwardness. I use 046 035 023 015 010, and I could likely increase the 046 and 035 to a positive result.

Both instruments have the low note only a fourth below rather than a fifth. That allows for the I, IV, and V chords to be in close proximity when chording with 5 strings. For those using two and three note chords, that is not an issue; but I happen to like the power chord sound of the 5 strinigs ringing out the 1 5 1 5 3 of the scale. A stylistic thing for me.

I am not qualified to address my Stan Pope (Road to the Isles, is it? Or has that changed? 22.25" scale. It was built for G D A D G. I had in mind going to D G D A E (an octave below the Freshwater) eventually after experimenting with a guitarish-like octave strung tuning which time constraints have prevented.

I have enjoyed the five-couse instruments due to the extended breadth of sound available on them. If you go for a straight fifths tuning, you reap a two octave + a major third interval between the low and the high strings where a guitar features two octaves between the low and the high. Th tuning I use abbreviates that by a step, but it is still a step broader than the guitar. And furthermore, they raise a lot of "What is that?" questions to stimulate conversation....

Ron

[doon can]

I play a lovely Fylde archtop cittern, 23.5in scale, tuned GDGDG. It´s beautifully built, produces a huge shimmering sound, and more or less plays itself!
A popular builder here in Sweden is Mats Nordwall, who makes several variants on the cittern/bouzouki theme, including a fabulous 25.4in 5 course cittern, played by Esbjörn Hazelius among others.
I agree that 5 course instruments have a particular fascination. Maybe it has to do with the seemingly endless possibilities to go somewhere unexpected, higher or lower.....Odd though that, by extension, 12 string guitar doesn´t have quite the same pull. Then again, plenty of players here, such as Roger Tallroth use 12 string guitar in odd open tunings; kind of super-citterns!

[Eddie Sheehy]

And 12-string guitars/super citterns brings me to my Ovation Double-neck. I have modified the 12 string part to be a 10-string cittern with octave strings on the lower courses - tuned Dd Gg Dd aa dd...

[Mandobart]

My Ovation 12-string is starting to shake and shiver everytime I look her way, especially with a bone blank and nut files in hand....

[danb]

Steve- I've had this list:

23" DGDAD Stephen Owsley Smith
20" GDAEA Sobell "large bodied mandola"
Vega 10-string mandolin/mandola (mandolin scale) CGDAE
Vega 10-string Mandola/mandolin (mandola scale) CGDAE
22" 5-string resonator tenor guitar (GDAEA)

I've tuned 'em all of the following:
CGDAE
CGDAD
CGDGD
DGDAD
DAEAE
DGDAE
DAEBE


The one that worked overall best was the Sobell. That 20 3/4" scale length plus GDAEA is by far the most fun things to do. No octave stringing, just unisons. Melody, cords, both work great.

Only downside of the Sobell design is you really want a couple more frets up top!

[Michael Wolf]

Hi Mark,

I´m glad to hear that the Tönjes works for you and that it will probably stay with you, that´s great. Also nice to hear that it´s going out for gigs.
If someone is interested, you can download a little demo that I´ve made of the Tönjes from my dropbox: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/54991857/Cittern-Demo.zip
I had it in GDAEA and there´s also a example capoed at the 5th fret.

[groveland]

Hey all.

Steve, you mentioned,

I'm interested in how y'all play these. Those who come from mandolin often think along the lines of 'I have a mandola & a mandolin!' while zouk/guitar players think of them differently, and that's more how -I- think, in partial chords.

You are right in my case. I think of it as a big mandolin... Or a pretty uncooperative NST guitar that's missing the high G. I tune my Moon in fifths, CGDAE, and use it as a contrapuntal voice (like Bach) and chordal instrument, both... It makes a great mandocello. I don't do much Irish stuff, sorry... More jazz-like than anything else, maybe, and I use a couple steel finger picks with a Blue Chip between index and thumb a lot.

Carved a bridge out of ebony, put the Allen tailpiece on there, and mounted an Armstrong mini-humbucker, but she retained her chornnnggg like at 0.21 and 1.29 in the clip below...

http://soundcloud.com/craigschmoller/ortodoxia

[darbuki13]

10 string 5 course Fylde Cittern.
Tuned GDGDG
Capo on 2nd fret for AEAEA
Capo on 3rd fret for
B♭F B♭F B♭

[nkforster]

It amazes me how few orders I get for 10 strings - when I worked for Stefan, 10 string big citterns (bouzouki scale) were bread and butter instruments, we made loads of them and short scale (which I feel never quite worked as well), and 10 string mandolins too. I can't have made more than half a dozen in the last ten years, where as in the 90's it was more than that in a year. I make LOADS of 8 stringers, but for 10 stringers I think this was the last one and that must have been a few years ago:



nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/inst...rish-bouzouki/

[billhay4]

Marty Jacobson's version. Speaks for itself.
Bill