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Thread: The Art of PICKING

  1. #51

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    [QUOTE]"... I wonder if the more complicated ornaments are just more feasible on a bowed instrument."

    Definitely!

    On mordents: those, too, like all ornaments, are routinely played with each note picked individually in traditional, classical mandolin playing. Hence JimD's presentation of the "left hand only" option as highly unorthodox.

    I like both. In Tartini, I might after all stick to pick-stroke-per-note. I love that "crackling effect" of ornamentation on the mandolin— provided I can do it proficiently enough!

    Generally speaking, I only do left-hand-only ornaments in folk music, or such as is directly influenced by, based on, or suggestive of folk music. YMMV.
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  2. #52
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    Were I to confine myself to actually picking each note, there would be (perhaps blissfully, insofar as auditors were concerned) many fewer notes played. The hammer-on is essential to my lack of technique. I can perform it smoothly, however, even though I know I'm cheating.

    What is it with all the various unwritten or half-written notes implicit in these ornaments, so called? Is it an attempt to save space and ink? Tradition? Or would it make the music, if written as played, impossible to read? Or, as seems likely from my feeble attempts, impossible to play?

    I've been having at it in a desultory fashion, playing the un-ornamented lines and trying to work in a low level of ornament as scored, but this stuff gets quite hair-raising (I wish!) pretty quickly. So tell me, how much of Tartini is actually possible to a violinist playing at a level below the professional? (Just my typical whine, before compulsive practice brings enough of the music to hand to still my grousing. But it does seem rather beyond the horizons of a hack like myself).

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Bob A @ Jan. 24 2005, 19:22)
    how much of Tartini is actually possible to a violinist playing at a level below the professional?
    It requires a student of fairly advanced technique to conquer the Tartini "Art of Bowing." As an example, I am just now starting one of my violin students on it after finishing both the De Beriot 9th and Mendelssohn concertos. I've had him do a lot of Leclair, Corelli, and Biber in the past, so I believe he's ready for the heavily ornamented Tartini. Trust me, it's not a work for the faint of heart ... or finger. Don't get discouraged. (I didn't even sign on for this project on mando, though I will confess to having tinkered around a little with it this month -- with not much to show for it.)
    John Craton
    "Pick your fingers to the bone, then pick with the bone"

  4. #54

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    Bob, you raise a broader, musicological and historical issue. In an oversimplified nutshell:

    Ornamentation was originally UNwritten, with the implicit expectation that the performer would embellish at will— and in good taste, of course.

    In the "Mesozoic" era, ornamentation was codified with all the arsenal of the familiar signs for the various types of embellishments.

    It was Mr. J. S. Bach who —O, scandal of scandals!—#first wrote everything out, including "realized" continuo parts, etc. He was vehemently assaulted on that account by Herr Scheibe and others, as the one "undoing all that was good in music".

    In short, Bob: The idea was to leave some degree of liberty to the performer, a degree that is naturally extended in the case of e.g. playing Tartini's Nifty Fifty on an instrument other than the violin. When I played this on bass (in Hermann Reinshagen's unpublished edition), the ornamentation was more sparse than in the original, with mordents far outnumbering longer trills, and other micro-ornaments omitted in the interest of clarity.



    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  5. #55
    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    That's an interesting history lesson Victor.

    I have to confess that I have been playing the ornaments as slurs rather than picking each individual note. Last night I sat down with variation 1 and picked out each individual note in the ornaments. I have to say it was frustrating but very profitable I believe. From here on out I'll give it my best to pick the individual notes, but with the understanding that from time to time, I'll reserve the right to slur if it sounds better. A musician has to reserve some liberties, right?

    -John.
    Ah! must --
    Designer Infinite --
    Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
    --Francis Thompson

  6. #56

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    Of course!

    And I do not wish to sound like I am disagreeing with JimD; all I am setting forth is the fact of historical performance practice, i.e. that in traditional, classical mandolin playing, all individual pitches sounded in the course of an ornament are picked individually.

    In agreeing with JimD, left-hand-only ornaments may well be the best course of action in this; I simply have not used them yet, but will gladly try them. As far as Jim's detailed outline of the pickstroke patterns involved is concerned, I agree with him 100%.

    Oh... and the "history lesson" is truly of a "bare bones" nature, with all sorts of logical, historical, and cultural holes that can easily be punched in its simplistic presentation of the continuum in performance practice. Still, said continuum holds (roughly) true.
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    My view on this particular variation is that the choice of how one articulates the ornamentation -- plucking every note or using the occasional slur -- is entirely a musical decision that may vary depending on one's mandolin. The great difficulty with left hand slurs on the mandolin is making them audible enough (there is no way to avoid some decay) to be musically worthwhile and this depends on the instrument (and of course on one's technique). On the other hand, articulating each note with the right hand requires that one's mandolin "speak" quickly -- very quickly if one takes the music at tempo -- and this too depends on the instrument. As for the variation in question, I've done it both ways on my Collings and think both can work.
    Robert A. Margo

  8. #58
    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    I play an MK right now, and the slurred notes do tend to decay pretty quickly. I am in the process of building a bowlback as we speak-I bent the first rib two days ago and it went famously, so we'll see how that responds in six months or so when I complete it.

    As this is an exercise, I think I should be more concerned with building technique than I have been thus far, so I I think picking the ornaments will be good practice for my slow fingers.

    -John.
    Ah! must --
    Designer Infinite --
    Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
    --Francis Thompson

  9. #59

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    Indeed. Ditto on both mechanisms of ornaments: they both ring out effectively on my nearly-year-old Calace. The character of left-hand-only ornaments is naturally more "laid back"; ornaments with each pitch rearticulated have a "crackling" effect, brilliant, more "active" #because of the rearticulation.

    All this, of course, with the usual disclaimer that words are a poor means of describing music.



    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  10. #60

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    In advocating left hand slurs in this variation, I am also simply avocating VARIETY of articulation. We should use all the resources available to us and put them at the service of our interpretation, right?

    Again, since this isn't really mandolin music, I would take liberties (of technique) that I wouldn't take with something written for the instrument.

    Of course, I agree that this all depends on our individual techniques and instruments.




  11. #61
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    Agreed re: ornaments. On the same note, so to speak, I think it is worthwhile to use tremolo in this music on occasion, for the sole purpose of building technique.
    Robert A. Margo

  12. #62

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    Regarding full, cadential trills —still speaking of Variation 2— I do 4 notes on m. 4, plus the anticipation C; in m. 8, I do 6+1, as before in the piece, on all similar spots of double-dotted eighth plus 32nd-note anticipation.

    Contrary to the suggested fingerings, I do not go up to third position in m. 5 (index finger on the D). A violinist might have opted for Icking's fingering here, so that the upcoming trill (B-flat to A) would not involve an open A. I hear nothing offensive in my mordent on the open A, and therefore feel no need to shift.

    The immediate consequence to this choice is that, for the very last note of the bar (F-sharp), I am not higher up on the A-course. So, I simply play the F-sharp with the second finger (i.e. in "half" position) on the E-course, then slide the same finger up to the G on the next bar. All the rest falls into place nicely by itself.



    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  13. #63

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    Onwards!

    Week 4 (Variation 3):

    For once, a somewhat, ah... less busy variation. And yet, one allowing for more, hmmm... variation. #

    All trills on quarter-notes, preceded by a grace-note (e.g. in m. 1), get 6 "noodles" by yours truly— better players might do more. By the way: Why does the C in m.2 NOT have a trill? Icking's error? Those with a printed edition, please inform us. One would expect it...

    In m. 4, A-course seems preferable for the entire first beat; ditto on m. 5 (with pickup), in the interest of uniformity in tone-color, all the way up to the penultimate note, B. By way of aural experience: the flatwound A's of Lenzner Consort strings were MADE for this kind of phrase. What a sheer delight! Velvety, sweet, smooth, lyrical... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

    The cadential trills on dotted 16ths, with 32nd-note anticipation (e.g. in m. 4 or m. 5), I play as 4-note noodles; pedantically speaking: 32nd, two 64ths, 32nd; then the anticipation 32nd upstroke.

    The trill in m.7 I play as a single mordent, without the following double grace-note; it seems awfully cluttered otherwise, especially as this lies in the middle of the phrase, and is therefore not cadential.

    I find no good effect in the grace-note E in m.8. Perhaps the bowed version of the piece makes the effect more palatable; as picked —by clumsy, inept me— it simply sounds jerky and awkward. Bah!

    Eager to hear how others are coming along with this.



    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  14. #64

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    Coming up, Week #5 (Variation 4):

    A thankfully straightforward, unproblematic variation; everything falls into place automatically.

    The only "fancy" picking I can think of —hardly fancy, of course— are three, consecutive downstrokes on the second of each group of triplets, throughout this variation.

    The cadential trill in m.4: 6 noodles, grace-note included, as before. The very last trill, in m.8, simple mordent on the 16th-note.

    In the "B section", mm. 5-6, I do like going up the A-course, as printed. While the open E is more tolerable on mandolin than it is on violin *ouch*, I still like the A-course here: the sound is lovely, PLUS all the ornaments lay better under the fingers this way.

    Courage, mando-brethren! 46 variations to go!
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  15. #65
    Professional History Nerd John Zimm's Avatar
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    I have to start this again. I have been sick, and preoccupied with building a mandola. Sadly, the art of picking has suffered.

    I did check out Andrew Manze's The Devil's Sonata and other works to hear how he plays these pieces. Impressive. They sound so lovely coming from his violin. He'd cry if he heard my sparse renditions.

    -John.
    Ah! must --
    Designer Infinite --
    Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ?
    --Francis Thompson

  16. #66

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    No loss, there, John. My arbitrary, or rather concurrent/coincidental plan to parcel this work all across the year is no hard and fast "rule"—#to each his/own pace.

    First of all, I wish you health!

    Beyond that, I always recommend study of the score before "comparative listening"; what makes Manze is Manze's making. I mean no disrespect to such a fine artist; all I am saying is that listening to someone ELSE's reading of a score, compared to reading it oneself, is simply second-hand.

    As a final thought: I think that, generally speaking, sparse is better. The bow glosses over a multitude of sins; the pick is rather, ah... unforgiving. Less IS more, as far as I can tell.
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  17. #67
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    Less is more, indeed. While spending most of my mandotime on other things, I continue to pick away at these variations, with success measured measure-by-measure, putting in such sparse ornament as can be squeezed between the notes by wooden fingers, interpreted by a tin ear. I look at sucess in terms of a gradual suppling, with little hope of even approximating the sins artfully covered by the bow, while untangling my knotted fingers as I go.

  18. #68

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    Oh, Bob... the Italians have a most wonderful, indeed sublime expression for all that has come down to us by way of technique-building materials, such as the Tartini: patrimonio scioglidita = "finger-loosening patrimony".

    Yes, I KNOW it sounds positively stupid in English, but please, let us get past that. What it means, in the truest, profoundest, downright most touching way is this: The way we play, our technique, our bag-of-tricks (if you prefer), are all a wonderous patrimony that we have inherited from our surrogate great-great-great-grandparents, all those fine artists who devoted their lives to building the rich corpus of instrumental-technique-minded works.

    At risk of tiring you all —more than I already have— with Latin dicta, semper reverendum!
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  19. #69

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    Week #6 (Variation 5)

    What a thorny, complicated little thing, this one... # Let's try to EXplicate it, if we can:

    In m. 1, I do the usual, 4 noodles on the trill, but simply omit the grace-notes. I must confess that incessant, garbled micro-noodling gets on my nerves. # So, trill plus the two 32nds is plenty for this old man. Besides, there is already a mordent coming up on the immediately next beat; enough is enough!

    Nicely, now the ornament in m. 2 sounds consistent, identical: 4-noodle trill plus two 32nds.

    I glide the pick across the barline to m. 3, disregard the first two trills in m. 4 —again, too busy for my taste— and close with the usual, 6-noodle cadential trill. Phew! (Of course, said trills would be simple mordents at tempo; I still find them overburdened, though...)

    In mm. 5 and 6, again no grace-notes. If you can fit them in, better #person than I... Of course, with or without them, please observe the E-flat in m. 5, then returning to E-natural in m. 6.

    In m. 8, again glide across the A- and E-course for the first two 16ths, then again two more downstrokes on the third and fourth one. 6-noodle trill, and we're home.

    As regards fingering, I shift far, far less than this edition suggests: not in m. 1, not in m. 4. I do, however, go up to second position in the beginning of m. 6, as well as for the run of 32nds in m. 7— in which case I find the editorial barré on the pinky most awkward and easily avoidable.

    Still, I have a long way to go before I can get this to flow like music... #



    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    Quote Originally Posted by (vkioulaphides @ Jan. 09 2005, 09:44)
    So, then: on the "Vicarious Violinism" thread, Tartini's The Art of Bowing has been generously linked by Eugene. It is, formally speaking, a theme with 50 variations, exemplifying just about every articulation under the sun.

    This is the beginning of the second week of 2005— 51 weeks to go. Ehm... you follow my sick, sick mind? #
    -//-
    Any takers?
    As with many things of late (must new year time always be so hectic!?), I'm coming into this topic rather belatedly -- apparently I have six weeks and four variations of material to cover before variation five; a daunting task, from the posts to date!

    I've reviewed the "Vicarious Violinism" thread, yet I'm missing the link Eugene generously posted. (Too much dancing with lunatics of late, I fear, has temporarily blinded me to the obvious...) A repost would be well-received, even if nothing else than to satiate my curious mind.

    Danke im voraus!

    Allen
    Dayton Mandolin Orchestra: http://DaytonMandolin.net/
    Midwest Mandolin Quartet: http://DaytonMandolin.net/MMQ/

  21. #71

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    It's here.

    Welcome, Allen! So glad you could join us. I am starting to get the dreary feeling of a rambling soliloquy...

    P.S. The misdirection to the "Vicarious Violinism" thread was entirely MY fault, Allen, not yours; I had meant the "Quarantine" thread of that time. Apologies and amends made.



    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  22. #72
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    I think I'm gonna jump on board, too... just picked up a copy yesterday and had a look.....wow! some of these look hard! interesting he should call it 'the art of bowing' when it involves all of this complicated left-hand stuff! Was that some kind of a cruel joke?

    adam

  23. #73

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    I've been dropping the ball a bit on this one. Most of my attention has been focused on composition projects and my practice time has been limited to just what is coming up in performances.

    I hope to catch up some time soon. Meanwhile, I'll read on and live this project vicariously.

    Hopefully only temporarily vicariously...

  24. #74

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    [QUOTE]"...#interesting he should call it 'the art of bowing' when it involves all of this complicated left-hand stuff..."

    Well, my understanding is that, as regards the left-hand techniques involved, much of what Tartini employed in this piece was already standard fare by his time. Anecdote has it that, when he was invited to a "violinist contest" with Veracini, he was so awestruck by the latter's virtuosity that he simply chickened out, left Venice, went back to Ancona, and somehow, somewhere, wrote his now legendary L' Arte dell' Arco.

    Who knows? Perhaps it was Veracini's reputedly stunning use of the bow that so astounded and humbled Tartini— no slouch himself! Perhaps it was that, in his mind, this work was more to showcase the various bowings, rather than the various (left-hand) ornaments.

    But we, of course, must focus our attention to these left-hand-related matters, as ornamentation on a picked instrument is significantly different from the usual practices of our bow-wielding brethren.

    Oh, and... Jim: far be it from me to imply that I am bringing this to performance level! Creeping along...
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by (vkioulaphides @ Feb. 16 2005, 09:19)
    Anecdote has it that, when he was invited to a "violinist contest" with Veracini, he was so awestruck by the latter's virtuosity that he simply chickened out, left Venice, went back to Ancona, and somehow, somewhere, wrote his now legendary L' Arte dell' Arco.
    It appears to be more than anecdotal. Tartini is reported to have been so impressed with Veracini's bowing that he withdrew from a planned contest and went into temporary retirement to perfect his technique, practicing eight hours a day. Veracini's bowing was renowned, and from the engravings of him it seems he used an unusually long bow. Tartini experimented with various bow lengths and sticks, and it was likely during this time of experimentation he wrote the work that has brought frustration to any number of students ever since.

    As an aside, Veracini lived with a dark cloud over his life, despite his incredible virtuosity. Once he was asked to sight-read a concerto by Pisendel, an arch-rival, in the presence of king and court. He did it poorly. Pisendel then asked one of the orchestral violinists, whom he had secretly coached beforehand, to play the concerto, and he did it with great aplomb. Humiliated, Veracini went home and attempted suicide by jumping out of a window. He succeeded only in breaking his leg and walked with a limp thereafter. After a tour of England in 1745, Veracini was shipwrecked and lost all his belongings, including his two Stainer violins which were considered to be the best of all Stainer's works. He died almost forgotten in 1768.
    John Craton
    "Pick your fingers to the bone, then pick with the bone"

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