Out-of-tune & Sloppy Recordings?

[JeffD]

Moving from modern recordings to older recordings can be like moving into a whole different sonic-environment for new listeners, the shock of vocals stripped of reverb, instruments tuned by ear, recordings worn by time, can prove too much for some, but for those who persevere they are often led to re-appraise a lot of their own musical tastes and values for the better.

Older recordings are not always better than today's offerings, and of older recordings its not only the best that has endured, i'm convinced that things are a little bit more random than that, but a lot of older recordings are still remarkably relevant to a modern listener and can prove a rich resource for a modern musician..

Yes yes yes

[JeffD]

I tried "wet" tuning on my mandolin once - like wet tuning on an accordion.

Well OK, if you must know, it wasn't on purpose.

[Charlieshafer]

Oh man, seriously? Historical informed performance for bluegrass? That's awesome. You have any links for that?

Let me try to dig a few out; they're all still "trying it out".

[ralph johansson]

I agree with Mike Edgerton, electronic tuners have improved music playing and listening. Also, about tuning to each other, how many remember those bluegrass festivals from the early 1970's? Every jam group was tuned a little differently from the last or the next one you tried to play with. Some in tune pretty well, some not quite so good. But they sure were a fun learning experience. Plus it's fun to reminisce with friends who were there.
Lee

It's hard to imagine how a graphical device could possibly improve people's listening ability. What's true is that electronic tunders have made it easier to finetune on stage or in noisy environments. And that's all.

[ralph johansson]

Actually Ivan there is one good solution. Rip the CD to digital (mp3's) and then play it on something like Amazing Slow Downer where you can vary the pitch and not alter the tempo. At least one of the old Monroe LP's seems to be a half pitch off (e.g., songs in A are in A#) so I think the band might have intentionally tuned high or Monroe's mandolin was off that day as I'm sure everyone else would have had to tune up to him! I think they did it intentionally however for effect or to make it hard to copy their stuff?

In notation the key of A# would require 10 sharps, 3 doubles and 4 singles. The proper designation is Bb, 2 flats. No Monroe studio LP was recorded in one day and there is, to the best of my knowledge, no recording of Monroe's where the "intended" key is A, and the actual key is Bb. He did, however, record a few songs in Bb, e.g., the Columbia version of Blue Moon of Kentucky, I'm on my Way to the Old Home, Sailor's Hornpipe, and Cheyenne. I know some people believe that they tuned high on these numbers (in mid-session !!) probably because they don't master they key of Bb themselves.

There are three tunes where the actual key is a half-step higher than the "intended" one. First, there are the two duets with Edd Mayfield, First Whippoorwill and Christmas Time is Coming, which sound like Ab and F but are really in G and F. Maybe the tape speed was doctored with, maybe they tuned high - in the latter caes there's nothing random about it, because there's a vibraphone on one of the songs. The third example is Brown County Breakdown, which sounds like F, but where open strings give it away as E. I've no idea what was going on there, and I forget which other tunes were recorded at the same session.

[ralph johansson]

Some of the recodrs from the 60`s were recorded at different times and days so if you even tried to play along with them you almost had to re tune for every song...The bands would take a lunch break and when they came back the guitar player would tune by ear and the rest would tune to him, since time was money they very seldom checked the intonation when capoing up to a higher key such as B so then the banjo and guitar would hardly ever be on the same pitch...I used to ask the guitar player to put his capo on and the rest would tune to his A and then if we had to drop down or go up it usually sounded close enough to each other to get by.....

Many of the older bluegrass bands all tuned to one note above standard, they claim it sounded better for bluegrass....At festivals I have walked around and got into jams and had to tune to fit each one, about 20 times a day, usually by the time I got in tune they were ready to quit, or maybe it was my playing, I never did figure that out....



Willie

At festivals there was often a lot of mutual sitting in on stage, excluding the arbitrariness you hint at. But now I'm speaking of professionals. I watched several BG acts at festivals 1969 and never did I witness what you are describing here. When the guitarist
put a capo on, HE was thrown out of tune, and it was his responsability to adjust. It would be downright silly to have, e.g., the mandolin player retune, as guitars (not to mention banjos) are much faster to tune. And did you expect the singer to retune his muscle memory, too?

[ampyjoe]

I think that, yes, some of the older players and recordings of them show fluffs, missed notes, and even out of tune instruments. But they always have great rhythm, phrasing, and timing. That's part of the reason there are fluffed notes - the older players played for non-musicians and especially for dancers and so if the tune had a tricky bit in it, the one thing you couldn't do was lose the rhythm and phrasing. If you lost a note or too, what matter, the dancers didn't feel checked, nor did the listeners tapping their feet.
Newer players sometimes seem to give precedence to nailing the tricky phrase even if the rhythm suffers. (I say sometimes, because there are many current players who play complex stuff with beautiful rhythm and phrasing).
I think all the above happens in Bluegrass, in Irish, and probably in many other kinds of music but you can really hear it in some of the folk revival fingerpickers vs the original blues guitarists quite a few of whom were not in the best of tune, but the drive was always there.

Kenny

[sarai]

Don't go to a bull looking for milk, and don't go to older recordings looking for the same qualities you'll find in the latest Nashville recording project. You'll find incredible energy, dazzling virtuosity, stylistic pioneering, and real "roots music," but you'll also find technological and technique limitations, and sometimes the triumph of aspiration and inspiration over skill and precision. And, "so what?"

I'm certainly not trying to change what is, but I am trying to understand it.

Sarai, the classic groups like Monroe from 45-46, Stanley Brothers, Flatt and Scruggs, The Country Gents, etc are absolutely imperative listening for your ear training for bluegrass, IMHO.

Stanley Brothers, Flatt and Scruggs, The Country Gentlemen are all growing on me at the moment. Flatt & Scruggs Foggy Mountain Breakdown is one of my fav. tracks at the moment. I heard a couple versions of it that they have recorded, but the one I'm listening to right now, I really like the banjo chop he is doing... it's like a chop with a slide.

[Gary Hedrick]

I'm a chiming in to add my tuppence...

It seems that this is another instance of one of those perennial debates that occasionally open up here on the cafe boards and (i may be wrong on this) one that seems to plague the Bluegrass section more than others.

There seems to be a real tension in bluegrass between technical proficiency and the emotional immediacy, and for my money (all tuppence worth) this tension has always been there and is integral to the music's identity. For instance, in my mind this tension between technique and emotion is what lend the excitement to a lot of Mr. Monroe's music.

Today's musicians do have greater technical means than the older generations but they also have a greater awareness of different musical styles, including those older styles, which means that today's musicians also have a greater choice of what they can play, some choose toward technical clarity, others toward emotive impression. Again, I think this tension will always be implicit in Bluegrass and it is those musicians who can play this tension that produce the most interesting material.

However, when it comes to the marketing of Bluegrass albums these days i do think that the bias, among established labels, does tend more toward pushing a technically slick, sophisticated, and most importantly, accessible product over those recordings that may still retain the raw burr of rough immediacy.

For my tastes sometimes this type production values seems almost like an over-compensation, anxious to shake off the stain of the soil and still trade on the roots, they place too much of the burden on the technical and lose the tension and excitement. Unfortunately these are also the type of album which provide a lot of the contemporary audience their introduction to Bluegrass, which may give a taste for the product but not a real taste for the flavor of the music.

Moving from modern recordings to older recordings can be like moving into a whole different sonic-environment for new listeners, the shock of vocals stripped of reverb, instruments tuned by ear, recordings worn by time, can prove too much for some, but for those who persevere they are often led to re-appraise a lot of their own musical tastes and values for the better.

Older recordings are not always better than today's offerings, and of older recordings its not only the best that has endured, i'm convinced that things are a little bit more random than that, but a lot of older recordings are still remarkably relevant to a modern listener and can prove a rich resource for a modern musician.

Of today's musicians - why do some play out of tune or produce sloppy recordings?

Some are doing so on purpose because they find that it suits them and its what they want to do.
Others are doing so because they are not technically proficient as musicians or in recording technology.

The relative ease in recording which we have today allows musicians of all levels to publish their efforts for relatively low expense and it also allows for a greater variety of musical flavors to be aired by-passing the tastes of major labels - but this also means that not every recording will be smooth and polished... rough diamonds and all that.

Just keep a keen ear open and try not to judge too harshly or too quickly because you might just cut yourself off from something wonderful.

As nicely and accurately stated a summary as I have ever read on the Cafe. You, my friend are spot on with all of your comments. I am a hard, core....Monroe worshipping....61 year old Bluegrass idiot ...... (just for a reference point about my liking this)

[sarai]

Just keep a keen ear open and try not to judge too harshly or too quickly because you might just cut yourself off from something wonderful.

I'm sorry if I came off like I was judging this guys coz I didn't mean to. I really was more interested in finding out if this is a stylistic element that I should be learning about. What I have taken from this is that in listening to these styles, I'll learn something and if it rubs off in my playing then so-be-it.

[allenhopkins]

I'm sorry if I came off like I was judging this guys coz I didn't mean to...

While I accept and respect good intentions, using words like "out-of-tune and sloppy" inevitably sounds like criticism. One could mention "variance in pitch" or "loose/less structured rhythms" or "an open, improvisational approach, rather than disciplined, precise playing," and make the same point.

Doubt you could find many musicians who would take "out-of-tune and sloppy" as a compliment, or even just as an observation.

Having said that, yes, there are recordings that are "out-of-tune and sloppy," but given the immense volume of recorded music over the past century, that's hardly surprising. What I'd be careful about, is drawing the conclusion that older musicians, in bluegrass or any other genre, were less talented, adept, or conscientious than modern musicians. They may well have been less schooled, especially in rural styles like old-time and bluegrass, but they were the people who created and developed the music we play today. Current musicians are in a sense "standing on their shoulders," and the best current musicians recognize this and give their predecessors the admiration and respect they surely deserve.

[catmandu2]

There does seem to exist some general "qualitative" differences between urbane and rural musics. And, it seems there is some amount of "gentrification" occurring in rural forms--resulting in some trends of greater "sophistication" (for example, "jazz" approaches--originally and perhaps primarily still an urbane aesthetic--adopted in folk forms; historically, jazz players and the jazz idioms have drawn more from "classical" methods concerning technical and theoretical aspects than they owe to folk styles--save for the element of "blues" aesthetics)

[MikeEdgerton]

I really have no problem standing by my electronic tuner statement. I've been playing long enough (about 50 years) to know about tuning forks, pitch pipes and pianos that are supposed to be in tune (many really weren't). They really have made a difference no matter what anyone says.

[Charlieshafer]

I'm addicted to e-tuners, so I'm on Mike's side. Most of the people I know who don't like them really should... Anyway, Sarai, I certainly don't take it as though you were insulting anyone, that's a very legitimate comment and many first-timers to old-time, especially, have the same first response. We had a few hard-core classical players at the jam a few weeks back, and neither really had done any fiddling before. After the jam, I pulled them aside for a few minutes with the laptop, and played them a few standards done by the old folks just so they could hear what the "source" sounded like. After listening to Tommy Jarrell for a few minutes, one asked, openly and without any negative judgement in her voice, "Did people think he was good?"

[allenhopkins]

Nice story, Charlie. The standards for what's "good" can indeed vary widely between classical and "folk" (bluegrass, old-time, whatever) musicians. Every now and then there's recognition by classical virtuosi of the strengths of some "vernacular" players -- I have a foggy memory that some well-known violinist expressed admiration for Mark O'Connor's tone -- but honestly, a trained classical violinist might well concentrate on Tommy Jarrell's lack of precision, rather than appreciating his energy and mastery of rural fiddle stylings.

Multi years ago, I jammed in my little apartment with Matt Glaser, who was studying at the Eastman School at the time, and heard him discuss his need to choose between "violin and fiddle" -- whether to continue conservatory training, or play the bluegrass, swing and old-time he really liked. Matt was playing in a student BG group, Gray Eagle, with Ken Finkel and a couple others. Interesting that he took the non-classical path...

I'd say fiddle is the instrument where this dichotomy is most often found, since classical mandolin remains a fairly small (though totally enjoyable) genre, and classical five-string banjo and steel-string guitar don't really exist. Maybe bass fiddle is another instrument where you could go "classical" or "folk/jazz/bluegrass," though not too many non-classical bassists play arco all that much.

[catmandu2]

... not too many non-classical bassists play arco all that much.

Just a quick correction: arco playing is common in jazz, and is a standard recommendation at least for exercises--as it helps to refine intonation

[Earthwood]

Daytripper by the Beatles always sounded off to me

[AlanN]

Just a quick correction: arco playing is common in jazz,

Yep, Slam Stewart and Paul Chambers easily come to mind.

[Willie Poole]

Last night (early this morning) on Songs Of The Mountain (PBS station)there was two young ladies that have won many awards in country folk music, they go by the name of "Alacia"...They do something that I haven`t been able to do in over fifty years...THEY SING OUT OF TIME WITH THE BEAT...One girl even pulled out a 5 gallon water jig and beat it like a drum....Theses gals travel all over the world, or so they say, and do this for a living, so they say, they are from east Tennessee living in a cabin in the mountains....

What made me sit up and really take notice of them was the one girl played multiple instruments and when she played her Ovation mandolin it was so far out of tune that I almost threw up (Just a fugure of speech), these girl were absolutly the worse I have ever heard and to be put on TV is a disgrace as far as I am concerned....BUT....The audience loved them...Go figure?

If any one else watched the show I hope you agree with me but I know some of you won`t...

The second band that was on the show wasn`t much better, called "The Woodshedders", singing was horrible and a guitar that didn`t have any tone what so ever, the mandolin player did sound OK though and oddly enough he has the same last name as mine, no kin that I know of though....They also had a good fiddle player...I might have to contact them and see about getting my band on there....I`m serious....

Willie

[journeybear]

Sounds like you might have to brush up on playing badly if you hope to pass the audition. Just hope it doesn't stick for when you have to play regular gigs. Personally, I am kind of a fan of out-of-tune and sloppy recordings. If it weren't for them, there wouldn't be any of me at all!

[Willie Poole]

J.B. Oh yeah I have a lot of myself when I mess up a song, in fact just last week I kicked off a song that wasn`t what I announced and the rest of the band was playing chords that fit the announced song, when we finished I just said "You guys don`t know that song do you?" and it brought a laugh from most people, I`m not sure the audience even knew the difference, most of them were country fans and not really bluegrass fans....

I don`t really like to make fun at people that just don`t have it but when putting them on TV the promoter should know what is acceptable and what isn`t....We all try our best but there is a limit....

Willie

[Mandolin Mick]

Some of the real old recordings like things by JE Mainer' Mountaineers and Carl Story & his Rambling Mountaineers are out of tune in vocal and instrumental work (fiddle in particular) and I actually find it appealing!!!

[sarai]

in fact just last week I kicked off a song that wasn`t what I announced and the rest of the band was playing chords that fit the announced song

LOL

arco playing is common in jazz,

All this talk about arco.... I don't even know what it is. I'll read further back in the posts maybe it will come to me.

I tried "wet" tuning on my mandolin once

wet tuning? that went over my head too. (doesn't take much)

Anyway, Sarai, I certainly don't take it as though you were insulting anyone, that's a very legitimate comment and many first-timers to old-time, especially, have the same first response

THANK YOU

This thread is sort of taking a life of its own.... still going.

[Charlieshafer]

"Arco" is the term used when using the bow on the bass, specifically, and sometimes the cello, but the cello is almost always used with the bow, so it's sort of implied there. As far as chipping in with jazz players going arco, can't leave out the master (usually always doubling on cello) Oscar Pettiford.

[catmandu2]

Some arco bass




something nice and wet