Guitar vs Mandolin technique?

[greg_tsam]

Hmm, I can always tell when a guitar player is playing guitar on his mandolin vs. a mandolin player playing his mandolin who also knows how to play guitar. But don't confuse this with the mandolin player playing mando on his guitar because that just sounds AWESOME!

And , catmandon't spam the thread with your videos while you sitting at home not reading all the posts and smoking your peace pipe while practicing how not to inhale.

[mandocrucian]

I am talking about playing the mandolin like a guitar because it is what one bothered to learn how to do.

No, you and the others were essentially saying is that a mandolin should sound like a mandolin and play the mandolin vocabulary, and the guitar should be played with guitar vocabulary.

You weren't talking about someone tuning a mandolin like the top four (or bottom four) string of a guitar. (Which, btw, is what Jimmy Page did, and studio guitarist Tommy Tedesco used to do. For that matter, that's what John Abercrombie opted for in tuning his Schwab electric 4-string.)

So using guitar tuning was never the issue. And almost everyone, myself included, were onboard with using the mandolin/violin diatonic fingering (each finger deals with two frets). So guitar fingering, one-fret-per-finger, was not an issue either. So that leaves vocabulary/phrasing

Do you really think that Rory Gallagher spent a whole lot of time learning "traditional mandolin" before he worked up "Goin' To My Hometime" on a mandolin?

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a guitar player transferring his/her guitar vocabulary onto the mandolin neck. In fact, I advocate it. By learning already ingrained sounds with a different tuning and fingering, the brain learns to translate those sounds and petterns and rewires the ear>hand connections for the new tuning. Connect the hand to the ear, and that process is a whole lot speedier and effective when the sound is already firmly in the mind. (I've had decent electric lead guitarists take some instruction from me and I've told them to use the mando fingering and just start playing the stuff you already know from guitar on it. - You already know how to play music. And why do you want to sound the same as every bluegrass mandolinist anyway?...unless that's actually the sound you want)

Rory.....Johnny Winter, RT, Carthy, etc. etc. etc. A major component of what went onto the mandos in their hands was stuff which was already in their heads. I remember Thompson telling me I should listen to Martin Carthy play mandolin..."It's just like his guitar playing." And Johnny Young....he plays the same stuff and licks on mandolin as he does on the guitar. Yank also played guitar.

I really like hearing (secondary) doublers play mandolin for the simple reason is that it is different than the usual "mandolin player" sound/approach. So they may not have quite the physical "mandolin touch" that comes from playing mando for years, but so what...? They don't think the same way on the instrument as the guy brought up with a particular mandolin tradition.

That's what pisses off mando players......what Steve Earle does isn't particularly difficult....but it's something that those mandolin player never thought up themselves, cause they just didn't have those rhythms or grooves in their head and they'd never hear it that way on their own. Levon Helm was never a "real mandolin player" either but that's the attraction.

And you bring up

If a mandolin player picked up a fiddle, and played it pizzicato while holding it oss his lap - it may be great, it may be stellar, it may knock all our socks off - but if that is all the mandolin player could do on the fiddle I would be loath to call him a fiddler. .

.

Yeah but you would probably tell a guitar player to play his mandolin with that godawful every-note-with-a-pickstroke "mandolin" sound (or is it really "mandolin-banjo" sound) instead of using all the usual left-hand slurring techniques, not to mention all the (electric) RH techniques (muting etc). Or a fiddler not to use "bowing articulations" on a mando. (which btw is what makes Stuart Duncan's mando playing 'flow" more than the norm.)

Actually, if it's "bluegrass guitar" and "bluegrass mandolin", what's the real difference in lead vocabulary or in playing technique? Not much, unless you factor in the Clarence White hammer-pull-slur" phrasings ala "I Am Pilgrim". You can play verbatim bluesy Tony Rice leads on a mando if you have it in your ear.

So, McCartney played mando like it might have been a uke. There are some impressive uke players out there and they use different non-mando techniques and vocabulary. I'd like to hear a real uke player pick up a mando and start messing around just to hear what comes out of the instrument. Ditto for flamenco guitarists.

But if you don't 'get' the "one big instrument" concept referred to by guys like Cooder and Lindley, fine, then do (and advocate) it the way we always dun it.

NH

[catmandu2]

Hmm, I can always tell when a guitar player is playing guitar on his mandolin vs. a mandolin player playing his mandolin who also knows how to play guitar. But don't confuse this with the mandolin player playing mando on his guitar because that just sounds AWESOME!

And , catmandon't spam the thread with your videos while you sitting at home not reading all the posts and smoking your peace pipe while practicing how not to inhale.

I do admit--I don't read all of everyone's posts. This bothers you? (or, is this what is bothering you?)

[foldedpath]

"Fingerstyle isn't that hard to learn,"

Speak for yourself! It's pretty difficult when I try and learn it!

Heh... sorry, that was a bit glib, wasn't it?

I should have said "basic fingerstyle." And I'm probably biased because that was how I started on guitar a long time ago, and it only seems easy in retrospect. I have only dim memories of a recalcitrant thumb, and it did take many years to break out of rote Travis/Ragtime picking into something more flexible.

I tend to view advanced fingerstyle guitar and other fingerstyle and bowed stringed instruments as a wholely different instrument than flatpicking any stringed instrument

Agreed, but I guess the point I was making (aside from just talking about the beginner level of fingerstyle) is that a guitar can be played both ways. So for anyone considering going the "other way" from mandolin to guitar, don't close out the option of learning some fingerstyle just because it doesn't involve a flatpick.

But yes... once you head off into the deep end of fingerstyle technique and past the folkie picking stage, then it becomes a whole different instrument.

[catmandu2]

No prob f-path, I read it through more completely the second time around.

Fortunately, cafe-ites are very polite and generous with those of us who may have less-than-optimal comprehension and attention, or other "disabilities" (such as disagreeing with them)

[catmandu2]

So, McCartney played mando like it might have been a uke. There are some impressive uke players out there and they use different non-mando techniques and vocabulary. I'd like to hear a real uke player pick up a mando and start messing around just to hear what comes out of the instrument. Ditto for flamenco guitarists.

But if you don't 'get' the "one big instrument" concept referred to by guys like Cooder and Lindley, fine, then do (and advocate) it the way we always dun it.

NH

One way in which a "guitarist" with a guitar concept playing upon a mandolin may sound distinguishable from a mandolin player playing upon a mandolin might be that the guitarist's harmonic sense may tend to gravitate beyond the "practical" range of the mandolin--this impels me to reconsider harmonic form--and vice versa; when I transfer between instruments I notice my concept tends to flex and expand. My voicings and chord inversions always become "re-thought" at some point on an instrument, and enhances creativity.

The "Lindley approach" has always been the most fun thing in music for me (and allows me play in a a lot of bands).

Really, the only thing that's important here is stylistic wherewithal. I believe that I'm with Niles in thinking the rest is BS (that is, something to feel exclusive about)

Re the flamenco bit: I always bring some flamenco sensibility along with me to other instruments--(especially uke!) since I have the longest history with flamenco guitar. I've also enjoyed considering the similarities between frailing banjo (and its origins the ngoni and akonting) and flamenco technique.


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[JeffD]

No, you and the others were essentially saying is that a mandolin should sound like a mandolin and play the mandolin vocabulary, and the guitar should be played with guitar vocabulary.

Not me. I am (I hope) trying to stick to the OPs questions - what about going from a guitar to a mandolin.

You weren't talking about someone tuning a mandolin like the top four (or bottom four) string of a guitar.

That thread is somewhere, but yea it came up. I forget who, but there was someone who was tuning their mandolin like a guitar in order to more easily do the guitar licks and shreds he liked.

And, if I remember, I held the same line, which is

-do what ever you want, certainly
-no problem exploring unique things on the mandolin
-tuning a guitar like a mandolin so you don't have to learn the mandolin, and calling yourself a mandolin player just bothers me.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a guitar player transferring his/her guitar vocabulary onto the mandolin neck. In fact, I advocate it.

No problem with me there. Bring on what ever musical insights you got, where ever you got them. Use it all.

I really like hearing (secondary) doublers play mandolin for the simple reason is that it is different than the usual "mandolin player" sound/approach. So they may not have quite the physical "mandolin touch" that comes from playing mando for years, but so what...? They don't think the same way on the instrument as the guy brought up with a particular mandolin tradition.

I can't argue with a taste thing. In some cases I would agree with you, others maybe not. Eddie Vedder's Rise for example I would agree.

Actually, if it's "bluegrass guitar" and "bluegrass mandolin", what's the real difference in lead vocabulary or in playing technique?

I have often thought this. Its interesting actually, how that works.

But if you don't 'get' the "one big instrument" concept referred to by guys like Cooder and Lindley, fine, then do (and advocate) it the way we always dun it.

I don't know what to think about that. I think Cat would be more sympathetic than I but that is a matter of taste.

I guess, to distill it down, you appear to be saying that pretty much what ever you do, if you are doing it on a mandolin you are a mandolin player, on a guitar a guitar player, and on either, a multi-instrumentalist. And on that note, brilliant people are going to have to disagree.

[JeffD]

So, you hear fellow's audio clip. He has been playing guitar for 15 odd years, just yesterday picked up the mandolin, and recorded this piece for comment. And for arguement's sake lets say it sounds just like someone playing a vigerous guitar on a mandolin.

The players musical instincts may be real good, his clever chord transitions and lyrics may be really interesting, it may be interesting and very creditable music. And I certainly would encourage that person as much as possible.

But I am not going to pretend he plays the mandolin.

[foldedpath]

So, you hear fellow's audio clip. He has been playing guitar for 15 odd years, just yesterday picked up the mandolin, and recorded this piece for comment. And for arguement's sake lets say it sounds just like someone playing a vigerous guitar on a mandolin.

The players musical instincts may be real good, his clever chord transitions and lyrics may be really interesting, it may be interesting and very creditable music. And I certainly would encourage that person as much as possible.

But I am not going to pretend he plays the mandolin.

Are you talking mostly about guitar-type strumming across all the strings?

To pick up on something Mandocrucian said earlier in the thread... "and another afterthought...... But, if had been Tim O'Brien playing the same type stuff on mandolin on "Galway Girl" .......... priceless!!!"... check out this video of Tim doing Hey Joe,, below. He slides into a hint of Bluegrass chop when he's accompanying Jerry's Dobro solos, but when he's accompanying his own singing there aren't too many degrees of difference between what he's doing on mandolin, and what John "machine gun strum" Doyle is doing on his guitar:



O'Brien is also a multi-instrumentalist (mandolin, fiddle, guitar, who knows what else), so maybe this feeds into the "it's all one instrument" idea. Although, I think that's something that's only really appreciated (by the player) after climbing the mountain top, looking back at all the instruments you've dipped your fingers in, and realizing common denominators in technique and expression. I'm not sure it's something that can be applied to someone who is very familiar with just one instrument, and then starts learning their second one.

[catmandu2]

So they may not have quite the physical "mandolin touch" that comes from playing mando for years, but so what...?

Well of course this kind of thing is very important when playing the "who is and who isn't a real mandolin player" game

[JeffD]

Well of course this kind of thing is very important when playing the "who is and who isn't a real mandolin player" game

You are a "less distinctions and categories and more its all good" kinda guy, and I am more of a "this is this and that is that, and this and that are both cool, but they are not the same thing, kind of guy. It occurs to me that you may deny this and submit that we are the same person.

[JeffD]

Are you talking mostly about guitar-type strumming across all the strings?

To pick up on something Mandocrucian said earlier in the thread... "and another afterthought...... But, if had been Tim O'Brien playing the same type stuff on mandolin on "Galway Girl" .......... priceless!!!"... check out this video of Tim doing Hey Joe,, below.

I think its incorrect to take out one chunk of the song and focus on that technique, in especially in this one where his dobro and vocal accompaniment is meant to contrast with his other playing. In that context its all real good and real mandolinny. He's just doing a lot of things with the mandolin, and some are strumming.

O'Brien is also a multi-instrumentalist (mandolin, fiddle, guitar, who knows what else), so maybe this feeds into the "it's all one instrument" idea.

Unless I miss understand entirely - that "it's all one instrument" idea is flawed from the get go, especially if you are using a multi-instrumentalist as an exemplar. I mean, if its all one instrument, why bother to learn more than one. If its all one, then your playing it nomatter what you are playing.

[catmandu2]

It occurs to me that you may deny this and submit that we are the same person.

Indeed. We are the yin and the yang

Boundary dissolution is not everyone's cup of tea, but taxonomies don't inspire me much--especially concerning music

Animals are divided into: (a) belonging to the Emperor, (b) embalmed, (c) tame, (d) sucking pigs, (e) sirens, (f) fabulous, (g) stray dogs, (h) included in the present classification, (i) frenzied, (j) innumerable, (k) drawn with a very fine camelhair brush, (l) et cetera, (m) having just broken the water pitcher, (n) that from a long way off look like flies.

[JeffD]

That's what pisses off mando players......what Steve Earle does isn't particularly difficult....but it's something that those mandolin player never thought up themselves, cause they just didn't have those rhythms or grooves in their head and they'd never hear it that way on their own. Levon Helm was never a "real mandolin player" either but that's the attraction.

I dunno. I am still thinking about this. I think I know what you mean though, that someone might say "he gets all that acclaim and all he does is that, not even a tremolo??!" But thats not me anyway.

I mean I could not do what he does regardless, which certainly doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion and having taste. But more importantly, I am not real performance oriented, and one might argue as to which came first, not being able to do things like Steve Earle or not being performance oriented,and I don't have a good answer myself. I think, though, that the roots of my ambivalence towards performing is not wishing I had his chops or his chutzpa or his groove, its that I don't care enough what an audience might like.

In any case, though he is not my consistent cup of tea, Steve Earle doesn't piss me off,

[greg_tsam]

haha...

I do admit--I don't read all of everyone's posts. This bothers you? (or, is this what is bothering you?)

I only kid you b/c cause I like you. Wait, I only kid you b/c I like to. Wait. Wait. I got it. It's all of the above. I don't know what I was thinking but it had something to do with this.

Oops, sorry...didn't read your entire post--only saw what Trevor had responded to...

...(unrelated video)

Sorry to stray...just had to...the vid is poor and maestro so elegant it's tempting to think this effortless, but it's magic

Nice statement s-


Once more and I'll stop, promise. Just a quick flash of brilliance on this cloudy morning!

(another unrelated video)

Pologize for not reading ther above posts in their entirety yet

But it is a discussion about guitar vs mando technique so the videos fit and I enjoyed them. I like when a guitar player plays mando with me b/c it sounds slightly different and complimentary. There's not really a wrong way if it sounds good.

[ralph johansson]

I guess this "play the mando like a mando" discussion comes from guitar players transferring bad guitar habits to the mandolin, making them even worse.

Seriously, there are important differences between the guitar and mandolin with clear musical implications. There´s the difference in range, not just potential range, but optimal range, and sustain. Try playing a fiddle tune in its original range (not one octave lower) on guitar. I've found that songs I've been singing sound best one octave higher on the mando and a fourth or fifth higher on guitar.

Arpeggiated phrases as in fiddle tunes often entail awkward string crossings on the guitar, not on the mandolin - actually my motive for picking up the mandolin was to be able to play those Howdy Forrester fiddle tunes that I had laboriously transcribed from a record of his. On the other hand, true (one note per string), naturally spaced, arpeggios are really accessible on the guitar only.

Sweeps across three or four strings don't really have an effective mandolin counterpart. PO's have more snap on mando, HO's less (they work best when followed by a picked note). Split string double stops and triplets are typical mandolin effects. Tremolo, a bit overrated on mandolin, is very cheap on guitar. Chords are voiced differently on the two instruments (no bass on the mando, fifths tuning) and usually have a more percussive function on the mando.

None of the above implies that guitar or mandolin playing must conform to some given standard (and certainly not to
current Bluegrass practice!)
there are certainly uncharted possibilities on both instruments. I try to phrase like a saxophonist on the mando, at least in moderate tempos. Not sure that this applies to my guitar playing.

[greg_tsam]

I recognize guitar players playing mando usually by the way they play the bass rhythm parts while strumming. Honestly, I like it but it's not very "mandoliny".

[Adam Sweet]

Then I guess I'm not a "real" mandolin player...I studied violin for 15 years before picking up the mando in 1980. Course I've practiced it diligently since, 32 years...

[Vigee]

PO's have more snap on mando, HO's less (they work best when followed by a picked note).

Try playing some strathspeys for a month: you'll feel differently about your hammers on.

[Fretbear]

I am a huge fan of both Steve Earle and Niles; that said, I also can't stand to hear the mandolin played certain ways (like a guitar!) It can be a very fine line between Earle's very genuine (and successful to my ear) approach, which is as Niles said "just how he hears it", Sam Bush's rhythmic powerhouse mastery and some nimrod hammering away at chords on a mandolin in the absence of any actual practiced technique, and presenting it as some kind of music.
I cringe to hear that kind of playing so much that it wasn't until I heard Ronny McCoury doing the odd strums on the open G chord in his Bluegrass Mandolin video that I allowed myself to start including anything like it into my own playing (that's just me) Everyone raves about a famous rendition of "Leaving Brownsville", but I can't enjoy it because all I hear are the out-of-tune A strings (again, that's just me)

[catmandu2]

I have little affinity for any of the mandolin approach in pop songs Earle, mcCartney, et al

I typically find it tedious to hear use of this term "real" (or "player" or whatever term of autheticism one employs)--a quite clumsy method of ascribing qualities of aesthetic nature. This is simply a matter of not having developed a useful contextual narrative deriving from understanding and consideration. The simple term "real player" may be a shorthand connotation circumventing the dileneation of factors herein, but it is really indicative of something else

We can consider this problem two ways: the mandolin is played for its own sake (extra musical) or, the mandolin is played to make music. Unless we are hearing and playing the mandolin merely as a calisthenic exercise, this leaves us with the other option-- to make music, or sound.

Personally, I've come to resist categorizing efforts by persons into "real" and "not real."--whatever THAT is. I've found much more utilitarian (and less provocative) language to differentiate between quailities of phenomenon. Using the term "real" implies that "everything else" is inauthentic, or otherwise undesirable. I view musical expressiion--no matter how "unaccomplished" or technically non-proficient--as worthy of consideration on its own merit. Using the term "real" may connote that which one may find suitable or objectionable, but this is cumbersome language to use. In my opinion it says much more about the person who uses these terms that it does about the subject to which that person refers; i.e., that the person wishes to present him or herself as superior in some way in relation to the subject.

[catmandu2]

I apologize to anyone and all re my above post--I was yacking on my phone and should have stopped.

Greg, my friend,and foldedpath I'd like to thank you for the moment of joy I'm feeling right now for having quite unexpectadly to get my guitar out-and I think I was largely inspired by those vids I posted and we were talking about. I'd sworn it off quite earnestly about 1-2 years ago, and I'd been wondering...what if I could play harp AND nyl guitar...?

I got her out and am enrapture again with her on my lap right now, After watching those vids we were talking about, I must have got inspired! And now truly am...and she's an old friend lovely thing, beautiful



SPeaking of real vs not real, the flamenco fora has the most florid arguments about this as I've encoutnered on the net.

[JeffD]

Personally, I've come to resist categorizing efforts by persons into "real" and "not real." In my opinion it says much more about the person who uses these terms that it does about the subject to which that person refers; i.e., that the person wishes to present him or herself as superior in some way in relation to the subject.

I have avoided the word "real" deliberately, because it serves only to stir the pot.

[catmandu2]

I have avoided the word "real" deliberately, because it serves only to stir the pot.

Well I appreciate that. On the ff , one shouldn't venture to imply that one plays real flamenco if one is not gitano!

[greg_tsam]

Then I guess I'm not a "real" mandolin player...I studied violin for 15 years before picking up the mando in 1980. Course I've practiced it diligently since, 32 years...

Keep trying, "kid". You'll get there someday!