Why do you play?

[Patrick Sylvest]

I haven't given it a great deal of thought. It's fun and people say nice things and put money in my jar.

[JeffD]

To overcome my deep insecuries and win my father's love.

thats tragic.

[Caleb]

I discovered "old" music in my 30's. It all came when I took up the mandolin. Discovering O'Carolan was like finding a musical soulmate. There is beauty, mystery, even dare I say "magic" in the old tunes. Many old fiddle tunes and ballads seem magical to me too. The modern world and modern music seem so dull in comparison. There's just something about wood and strings that beg to speak the languages of antiquity. It would take a better poet than me to put it in the correct words though...

[JeffD]

There is beauty, mystery, even dare I say "magic" in the old tunes. Many old fiddle tunes and ballads seem magical to me too. The modern world and modern music seem so dull in comparison. There's just something about wood and strings that beg to speak the languages of antiquity. ...

If you want "old" music that has magic you couldn't pick a better example than O'Carolan. In a way its the perfect tonic when we need to wash off the residue of the constant barrage of incipid modern popular music. And the experience is all the more powerful when we play it, as opposed to just consuming it. When we indwell the tunes themselves.

In thinking critically about all of this, I have come up with part of the answer. The blues. I think blues and blues progressions and intervals are so prevelant in our music and musical culture that we no longer hear it as such. Its everywhere, and its immediately compelling. Then, when we hear something like O'Carolan, or Charlie Poole in old time music, or any of the traditional music, we hear all the subtle flavors, the intervals and phrases, that are so much more detectable when the blues is absent. I have used the food anology in other posts: blues is like garlic, and often the garlic covers up the more subtle dill and cilantro.

When a young person, someone new to listening to music critically, says that some piece of music or type of music is corny, I think what is really being said is: there are no blues intervals in there.

One reason, I believe, that bluegrass is so accessible is that it has incorporated many blues intervals and progressions into what had been old time music.

Don't get me wrong, I can love Stevie Ray Vaughn as much if not more than the next fellow. But there is something refreshing, even bracing, like a cold shower, about music that is not blues influenced.

One reason to play, then, is to indwell the music we love. So that the music we might want to hear is getting played.

[catmandu2]

I usually disagree with Jeff as a general policy ...but I concur with this

I've studied classical, flamenco, scandi, afro-cuban, reggae, blues, cajun, jazz, and (rock )...and probably others

And for the last, oh 15-20 years, I've played O'Carolan tunes througout. I've played them on probably 6 or 8 or 10 different instruments. I enjoy O'Carolan so much that I've been carting a hammered dulcimer around for 30 or so years--JUST to play O'Carolan. And I recently acquired a lever harp proper--iin order to play O'Carolan in even purer form. Still, I intend to acquire a clarsach proper...in which case my quest will cease

[Bertram Henze]

But there is something refreshing, even bracing, like a cold shower, about music that is not blues influenced.

Exactly what I think since 40+ years

And as for being corny...

[DougC]

Connie's #6 and AllenHopkins #4 for me. AND I get to share music with my wife-who really loves music too. She is much better than I'll ever be and I have the challenge of playing at a higher level.

Also BarefootBud said something important. Connecting with some musicians in the distant past. Yup that's me.

But the notion of roots connections is a fairly weak motivation for me. I often get asked, when playing Irish music, if I am Irish. Nope. English/German. When I play klezmer music, people say, you don't look jewish. Nope, I grew up in a jewish neighborhood. So nu?

And hey, this is great stuff, you should try it.
And yea I love the blues too esp. Sonny Terry and Brownie Magee and Robert Johnson.

[mandocrucian]

When a young person, someone new to listening to music critically, says that some piece of music or type of music is corny, I think what is really being said is: there are no blues intervals in there.

One reason, I believe, that bluegrass is so accessible is that it has incorporated many blues intervals and progressions into what had been old time music.

????? I have no idea what you are talking about. (pre-bluegrass) Old-time had plenty of "blues intervals" (whatever you mean by that). That old stuff had neutral tones, non-equal-tempered scales and intonation galore. And until the advent of fixed pitch instruments (accordions, pianos), Irish music was a lot more non equal-temperament in nature. Listen to recordings of any of the older Irish fiddlers and they weren't playing 12TET. Think bagpipes are on a piano scale?

Nordic music is full of quarter tones and wobbling between major and minor. Listen to Hungarian stuff like Muszikas...it's not "classical" pitch intonation at all. In fact, the same is true of ethnic music all over...Greek, Italy,the Balkans, not to even mention India, east/southeast Asia, the Middle East, Africa etc. etc.

Yeah, strict European 12TET pitch intonation is (except when used on the music it was designed for....European classical) "corny" - it's The Carpenters. And if you think that blues is just playing the minor pentatonic fretted notes (and those frets are aligned to 12 TET intonation, BTW) superimposed over major chords ......... well, that's pretty corny too, (imo).

[catmandu2]

Even in the Western orchestra...cats tune to the oboe

[greg_tsam]

And if you think that blues is just playing the minor pentatonic fretted notes (and those frets are aligned to 12 TET intonation, BTW) superimposed over major chords ......... well, that's pretty corny too, (imo).

I love it when you start posting about music theory and such, Niles.

[Bertram Henze]

And until the advent of fixed pitch instruments (accordions, pianos), Irish music was a lot more non equal-temperament in nature. Listen to recordings of any of the older Irish fiddlers and they weren't playing 12TET. Think bagpipes are on a piano scale?

True, but I am not sure deviation from equal temperament was even mentioned in the post addressed by this. I hear Blues as a collection of recognizable stylistic elements (which can be played on a piano, yes), and the ubiquitous use of these elements in many other genres lets the few remaining genres make a refreshing difference.

[catmandu2]

Corny can certainly be evoked by any playing of notes without "feeling.". Blues are probably one of the most abused forms--as it is one of the hardest to "fake" convincingly and yet one subjected to all manner of dilettantish treatment by anyone with a guitar and a barre chord. Nothing worse than hearing a cliche without at leadt some context--blues ( and jazz) figures heard in a sterile presentation like commercial media, ####ty bands, whatever you have--the void is conspicuously evident

Maybe one of the appealing things about bluegrass is that it presents some of these familiar stylistic elements in an "easy" and accessible form

[JeffD]

Niles is right about intervals being intervals, and were played before the blues. So thinking about this, I guess its bluesey when the blues intervals are emphasized as the dramatic arc of the piece. So I guess the more exact thing to say is that its the way certain intervals and chords are used to make drama in the tune.

We could have a whole discussion about what is and isn't blues and where it begins and ends, and believe me no thank you.

I am just getting starting to step out of, what did you call it 12TET (its as good a TLA (three letter acronym) as any), in Irish and in Nordic and in old time. And finally I see there are things the fiddle does better than the mandolin. With frets you are limited to what somebody said are the right notes, while with the fiddle you can shade them at a whim. Its a whole 'nother world. (I'll never give up mandolin, as I will not ever be more than a scrappy fiddler.)


Yes, Sonny and Brownie and Robert Johnson, of course real good stuff. But its too strong, to influencial. The modern western mind and ear jumps to those intervals and can't escape thinking that is where the tune is going. (There is a Beethoven string quartet, I forget which one, that I can't listen to because it sounds like ragtime to me.)

I am never, ever, going to have other than a modern western ear. Its impossible for me to be the listener from nowhere, (or no when.)

[JeffD]

I usually disagree with Jeff as a general policy ...

I think we have improved each others arguements over the years.

[JeffD]

And I recently acquired a lever harp proper--iin order to play O'Carolan in even purer form. Still, I intend to acquire a clarsach proper...in which case my quest will cease

I have a duet partner, a harpist. We do mostly O'C. Its wonderful. Works everywhere, at an Irish jam, for a dinner time concert, even at an OT festival.

[catmandu2]

I am never, ever, going to have other than a modern western ear. Its impossible for me to be the listener from nowhere, (or no when.)

Well it's an interesting dialectic for sure--the best ones are when two folks from different traditions and sensibilities get together and flesh out some common feeling; the worst typically evincing when "institutions" clash: this is readily seen in "classical"/academia vs folk disputations. I tend to find myself involved with these--my recent foray impelled by an excursion into ITM with an oboe--easy with an iconoclastic general sensibility

I certainly understand feeling bound by tradition, and being generally limited in musical vernacular--being raised on rock in the motor city. Nothing of course wrong with tradition in and of itself (we just tend to get crazy with it--as we tend toward ideologies))...music serves many functions--it can liberate in amazing ways--and can also be a political tool

####--phone is shutting down

[catmandu2]

Phone recharged--probably ran out at just the right time

I have a duet partner, a harpist. We do mostly O'C. Its wonderful. Works everywhere, at an Irish jam, for a dinner time concert, even at an OT festival.

Like blues, it's a potent oeuvre. For me it's especially nice since having given up baroque playing with guitar. It's a nice "bridge" across idioms--baroque, medieval, Irish folk, solo, duo, ensemble...and of course the melodies are wonderful

[catmandu2]

Obviously another diversion off-piste, but for the cursory discussion of blues and the musical dialectic, see Bela's "Throw Down Your Heart"--an exceptional musical document