Monroe's Influence on Rock and Roll

[Rick Albertson]

Honky Tonk Swing; 1941; Bluebird
Rocky Road Blues; 1945; Bluebird
Bluegrass Special; 1946; Columbia

Seems to me these three songs were pretty close to early rock and roll and must have had an influence.

[Tom Smart]

From the Chuck Berry entry on Wikipedia:

[Chuck Berry] and Carl Perkins became friends. Perkins said that "I knew when I first heard Chuck that he'd been affected by country music. I respected his writing; his records were very, very great." As they toured, Perkins discovered that Berry not only liked country music, but knew about as many songs as he did. Jimmie Rodgers was one of his favorites. "Chuck knew every Blue Yodel and most of Bill Monroe's songs as well," Perkins remembered. "He told me about how he was raised very poor, very tough. He had a hard life. He was a good guy. I really liked him."

I'll just add that the influence of country music can be heard all over 1950s rock. Why should that surprise anyone? What do you suppose anyone from Memphis with an interest in any kind of popular music at all would have been listening to on a Saturday night? Nashville is only 200 miles away.

[Beanzy]

Don't forget the influence of mainstream hyper-commercialised 30's swing bands like the Light Crust Doughboys. I know it sounds slightly strange but bands like these were a pre-war conduit through which many first became aware of the possibilities musically, but were repulsed by the 'cheesy' image. Monroe reacted strongly against the hammed-up hick image these bands cultivated. Early R&R acts were kicking against that too, but I don't think it was under his influence, rather a shared rejection of the inane. One things for sure they both went their own ways once they got a clear image of what they were after. He went for one sound in a civilised suit, they went for another electrified one gyrating in leathers. I love both, though I'm only getting around to BG now.

The swing musicians were really accomplished high-energy guys though:
Check out the banjo solo / crescendo at the end of this one;

[Barry Wilson]

that tiger rag was ripping. holy crap that banjo was screaming

[poymando]

I'll have to hunt down the actual quote but if my memory is not failing me, early Sun Records recording artist, Charlie Feathers said that Rockabilly was "nothing more than Bill Monroe music and cotton patch blues".

[mandopops]

There is no denying that most Rock & Blues Musicians (Black & White) of the Era listened to the Opry & it's whole roster of performers. Monroe was one of many. Fine. I'm sure it all had some effect. I agree w/ Jim it's in the degree on each individual.

I would not deny Chuck Berry knew the Music of Bill Monroe. It's that it's impact was not great enough to cause him to go the Bluegrass route, as much as going towards Louis Jordan, Nat Cole, or Muddy Waters. Elvis too, did not go in the Bluegrass direction. In fact, didn't Monroe move "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" in the Elvis direction?

Isn't it that fewer & fewer performers at the time went that direction? Monroe & Bluegrass were falling out of favor. His influence was diminishing. Musicians (Country,Blues,Rock,etc...) were rejecting that approach. For better or worse.

Monroe the 1st Heavy Metal? Is that supposed to be a compliment?

[Wolfboy]

I'll have to hunt down the actual quote but if my memory is not failing me, early Sun Records recording artist, Charlie Feathers said that Rockabilly was "nothing more than Bill Monroe music and cotton patch blues".

Here ya go - Charlie Feathers, quoted in Lost Highway: Journeys and Arrivals of American Musicians by Peter Guralnick. The final sentence seems especially germane to the subject of this thread...

"To be honest with you, I never did do a whole lot of country. Now Hank Williams - I always liked his stuff a lot. And Bill Monroe, he used to come through Hudsonville, set up tents and all, man I thought it was the greatest thing I ever heard. Well, you see, I loved bluegrass all my life, but I never did know how to play it. There wasn't nobody around who could play that type of music, only colored artists thumping on their guitars. Oh man, there wasn't anything to beat it. Them colored get out there on the weekend, they get together anywhere there was a guitar, just tune that guitar way down and whomp on it. Man, they play and gamble and shoot dice all day long, all night long, too. Sam [Phillips], he always said I was a blues singer, but I was really singing bluegrass and rapping on the guitar like I heard them colored artists do. Bluegrass rock, that's what it really was. Sam called it rhythm 'n' blues, some said it was country rock, but Bill Monroe music and colored artists' music is what caused rock 'n' roll."

[Paul Kotapish]

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
from you-know-who

I love the quote, but . . . http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/dub...r_thompson.htm

[Mike Bunting]

I love the quote, but . . . http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/dub...r_thompson.htm

Truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it.
- Following the Equator, Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar

[ralph johansson]

Honky Tonk Swing; 1941; Bluebird
Rocky Road Blues; 1945; Bluebird
Bluegrass Special; 1946; Columbia

Seems to me these three songs were pretty close to early rock and roll and must have had an influence.

They were blues and Monroe didn't invent the blues; it was ubiquitous in popular music and jazz at the time.

I understand that Rocky Road was really a cover of some black musician's recording. Whatever similarities you hear between Monroe and various rock artists to me only imply they share some influences.

The first white R&R star, Bill Haley, was a country singer in the beginning. In 1951 he recorded Rocket 88, a conscious attempt to blend R&B with country music, and that's where he took off from. He always claimed that the back-beat in R&R derived from the sock rhythm guitar in country music. I've read several interviews with Haley and never have I seen any mention of Monroe.

[mandopops]

To Ralph's point, as the song goes:

"The Blues had a baby & they called that baby, Rock & Roll."

[Paul Kotapish]

I always loved this explanation from Levon Helm in The Last Waltz:

[Martin Scorsese is asking Levon Helm about his home state, Arkansas, and his musical influences]

Levon Helm: Bluegrass and country music ... if it comes down into that area and if it mixes there with the rhythm and if it dances, then you've got a combination of all that music ...

Martin Scorsese: What's it called?

Levon Helm: Rock and roll.

[allenhopkins]

Definite connection between country music and rock'n'roll. Just finished reading a history of Starday Records and Don Pierce, and the extensive rockabilly catalog Starday created in the late 1950's just shows there were a lot of country musicians ready to rock.

However, not the same thing as establishing a connection between bluegrass in general, and Bill Monroe in particular, and early rock. That's more problematical, absent some more explicit evidence. There were some (Greene, Rowan) who played in the Blue Grass Boys and later played rock, of a sort, in Earth Opera and Seatrain, but they were young city musicians who listened to and experimented with a wide variety of styles over their careers.

That is not something one can readily say about Bill Monroe. He found the style that suited him -- in fact, he pretty much invented that style -- and stayed with it. Trends and fads came and went, but the Monroe sound from 1946 was awfully close to the Bill Monroe sound of nearly 50 years later. Compared to Monroe, Earl Scruggs was a wild-eyed eclectic, and the McReynolds and Osborne brothers, with their drums and electric basses, were more "modern," for better or (mostly) worse.

I'm sure rockers listened to Monroe, and liked his drive, energy, instrumental skill, and overall attitude -- "here I am, like it or not, doing it my way regardless of critics and fashions." But did they take his music and incorporate it into rock'n'roll? Maybe just a bit, here and there, but major influence? Don't see how the case has been proven.

[Mike Bunting]

There were some (Greene, Rowan) who played in the Blue Grass Boys and later played rock, of a sort, in Earth Opera and Seatrain, but they were young city musicians who listened to and experimented with a wide variety of styles over their careers.

Grisman was in Earth Opera too playing mandocello, at least when I saw them.

[Paul Kotapish]

Good points, Allen. I suspect that--aside from "Blue Moon of Kentuck"--Monroe's influence was a lot more subtle than specific in most cases.

Still, I'm always amazed at how often his name comes up when musicians of all sort talk about their early influences and musical heroes. Jerry Garcia always comes to mind, of course, since he actually headed east with the idea of auditioning for Monroe at one point and frequently talked about how the threads of country and bluegrass were woven into the Dead's musical tapestry.

When I interviewed David Lindley some years back he was adamant that his fabulously eclectic (and very electric) El Rayo-X ensemble was "all bluegrass" in its conception--not in any obvious way, of course--but in how the songs were modeled, the relative roles of the different instruments, how the breaks were handled, etc.

Interesting that Monroe declined the invitation to participate in the Will the Circle Be Unbroken sessions, which certainly had a lot of impact on a generation or two of musicians who otherwise wouldn't have been aware of bluegrass or early country music.

[brunello97]

Interesting thread and conversation. Levon Helm seemed to nail it during an interview in "The Last Waltz" when he talks about that blend of country, bluegrass and blues that was happening around East Arkansas. Scorcese asks him what's it called. "Rock and Roll." Makes me recall the equally apocryphal stories of Miles Davis saying he wanted his horn to sound like Sinatra singing and Charlie Parker saying what a fan he was of country music in general and Hank Williams in particular. A good reminder of what a great big creative stew American music was (and maybe still is but from a distance that seemed like a particularly special era.)

I've never been much of a fan of Monroe or his music, but this thread has got me listening again, hopefully without prejudice. And I thank y'all for that.

Mick

[tree]

Maybe the question should be how Arnold Shultz influenced rock and roll, through the playing of Monroe. Shultz was openly cited by Monroe as a blues influence.

I am also struck by the similarity between Chuck Berry's signature lick in Johnny B. Good, and Monroe's breaks between verses in the 1941 ("pre-bluegrass") version of Were You There.

[Fretbear]

Robert Johnson was playing fully-realized (acoustic drum-less) R&R in the thirties on his 29 sides.
He and Monroe were born within six months of each other in the same year, 1911. Everybody acts like R&R was some recent invention from the fifties & sixties; the British "invaders" were copying (and stealing credit for) old Willie Dixon blues and Little Richard records and the American Rockabilly cats were already at least half country to go with their other half, which was (rhythm &) blues. It should read: "The blues (and country) had a baby, and they named it Rock and Roll..." Levon Helm will tell you himself that Muddy McKinley Morganfield Waters is the real holder of the title of "King of Country Music." Bill Monroe was one of the bluesiest country musicians around, and played his mandolin alot like Chuck Berry played his archtop guitar, except he was doing it first.

[maki]

Maybe the question should be how Arnold Shultz influenced rock and roll, through the playing of Monroe. Shultz was openly cited by Monroe as a blues influence.

I am also struck by the similarity between Chuck Berry's signature lick in Johnny B. Good, and Monroe's breaks between verses in the 1941 ("pre-bluegrass") version of Were You There.

Just read much the same at this site;

http://www.mandolinblues.com/story.html

In the surrounding countryside other musicians and bands flourished. W.Howard Armstrong and Carl Martin and their Tennessee Chocolate Drops performed for medicine shows, parties and fish fries. Yank Rachell traveled about, playing the deep blues with his guitar partner Sleepy John Estes. Young Bill Monroe played guitar with a black fiddler named Arnold Schultz. Monroe then took the fiddle music of his Uncle Penn and the blues from Schultz and blended them together on the mandolin, creating a new American genre that came to be known as bluegrass.

[Dave Gumbart]

Ron Thomason has talked about Bill's influence on rock and roll, and he makes a very compelling case for Bill's emphasis on the 2 & 4 as the genesis for the backbeat of rock and roll. No doubt he has discussed this elsewhere, but I'll have to check on a recording I have of Ron and Brian Aldridge doing a Monroe workshop at Grey Fox last year to see if there's more specifics I can dig up. His opinion was certainly based on more than just "oh yeah, those early rockers all loved Bill's music..." I remember thinking to myself that it would make for a heck of a research project.

"It's got a backbeat, you can't lose it." So, I wonder where they found it.

[Mike Bunting]

.

"It's got a backbeat, you can't lose it."

"Any old way you use it."
Good post.

[mandocrucian]

"I'm 118 and I like it......"

[allenhopkins]

Grisman was in Earth Opera too playing mandocello, at least when I saw them.

Yeah, but he didn't work with Bill Monroe; the point I was trying to make was that some of the "citybilly" Blue Grass Boys went on to play rock'n'roll. Jerry Garcia supposedly was going to audition for a banjo slot in Bill's band, but got cold feet. Bill Keith played banjo for Monroe (his early "chromatic" leads on fiddle tunes were extremely influential), and went on to play pedal steel in The Great Speckled Bird, a country/rock ensemble fronted by Ian & Sylvia Tyson. But Keith was very eclectic, also playing in The Jug Band with Kweskin and the Muldaurs.

No one contends that some bluegrass people didn't play rock. Given. Still skeptical that Bill Monroe's a major influence on rock, just because he "chopped" his mandolin on the "two" and "four" beats, and some of his breaks sound like some of Chuck Berry's.

Everyone in music listens to everyone else, sometime. I want so see some actual documented interaction before I cop to the "major influence" theory.

[M.Marmot]

Everyone in music listens to everyone else, sometime. I want so see some actual documented interaction before I cop to the "major influence" theory.

That's more or less my own take on things too, i just don't see how simply because you heard or listened to some music or were aware of some musician that automatically leads to being influenced by them.

Heck-o, if that was the case i'd be channeling the ghosts of Duran Duran and Katchagoogoo, i mean, those bands had massive airplay when i was growing up... and as far as i can tell i'm still blessedly free from embodying their music's dubious charms.

But i do appreciate some good research and if someone can demonstrate a definite substantial link that can trace the stamp of Mr. Monroe's big ol' boot on Rock on Roll's hide then i'd be excited to see it.

[Dave Gumbart]

Warning: very long post, beginning with a real tangent. Sorry for the verbage. Some good research would be just the thing. I did check out the Thomason/Aldridge Monroe workshop (Grey Fox 2011, thanks to the humble little Zoom H2), and here's what I can report. First, the prelude. On a hot July day, Friday the 15th, Michael Cleveland and Flamekeeper have just finished their set on the main stage, at about 3:30. Smokin'. About to head to the Monroe workshop Ron and Brian are set to do, the main stage change becomes something else entirely. Kenny Baker has just died, only one week earlier. Grey Fox is the first place many can share the grief for the man, and celebrate the music with others who might just know what the heck you're talking about. Matt Glaser enters with a large cast of players, and announces the Kenny Baker Memorial Orchestra will now play a tribute. At first curious, and then attentive, the folks lucky enough to be in the crowd at that moment are treated to a medley of some 10+ minutes, dedicated to Baker. Kentucky Waltz, with Tim O' taking vocals, starts off. Matt calls on Michael Cleveland to get to the front of the stage. Into Cross Eyed Fiddler, and it sounds like all the fiddlers in heaven itself are accompanying the group, as goose bumps arise and a happy tear swells up. Stoney Lonesome rocks the joint, and they finish with the Dead March, as the assembled musicians slowly leave the stage, leaving Michael to finish things off in solemn fashion. Wow. The couple behind me are equally awestruck. Time to get to the workshop. Having checked out the Baker Memorial Orchestra, I get to the workshop a bit late, and hear that I have just missed Big Mon. Fair enough. That Baker tribute is on You Tube, and while it can never replicate being there, it is worth the view. Now for our feature presentation.

At the workshop, someone asks a question about Bill's induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Ron replies:

I gave the keynote speech. That, again, was a surrealistic experience. I’ve told different parts about it before, but every word is true. I got to the rock and roll hall of fame, and it is has a…the lady who was, I always called her the curator, but I don’t think that was her…she was the director of it. She came out, real nice, and she was takin’ me around to see all the things in the rock and roll hall of fame, and it was quite fantastic. Of course, I really loved the early period of rock and roll, and at that time, that’s mostly what was there. And we get to this place, like a corner you turn around. And she says ‘wait a minute, wait a minute,’ and she comes up and covers my eyes, and says ‘now don’t look until I take my hands off your eyes,’ like… “okay...no, I’m lookin’…” She walks me around this corner, and goes ‘voila!’ And I open my eyes, and she says ‘tell me what you see.’

Well, what I saw was this white suit; 25 dollar mandolin hangin’ next to it; a few buttons on it and different things…I knew what I was…and a white hat. I knew what I was supposed to tell her was “I see Bill Monroe.” But what I realized was, what I see is an empty suit, which is just exactly the opposite of Bill Monroe, you know? They could’a had his name there and it would’a meant more to me.

That was when she said ‘what are you going to speak on this evening?’ and I said “What would you like for me to speak on?” And she said, of course I’ll never forget this, she said ‘I only know about Bill Monroe is that he wrote Blue Moon of Kentucky, and Elvis Presley recorded it. Do you know anything else?’ Well, as a matter of fact…

He’s in there. After all, he wrote Blue Moon of Kentucky. And Elvis Presley recorded it. But what he really did, and this is…I’m sorry, one thing leads to another…In my mind, and I could be wrong about this, and this might make an interesting topic to argue about…we could have a knife fight over this…I think when it comes to modern American music, he invented the backbeat. And I’ve listened to a lot of pre-Monroevian music. And we’re so conditioned to hearing the backbeat in music now, that you hear it when it’s not there. And I’ll challenge you to do this. When I listen to old Flatt & Scruggs music, I hear the backbeat, but it ain’t there.

When they were playin’ with Bill Monroe, he had not yet started doin’ the mandolin chop. And those great, classic songs, with Lester and Earl and Bill and Chubby Wise recorded do not have a mandolin chop in it. And I’ve challenged people about that, and they think it’s there. And I used to think it was there. But you go listen to those songs. It ain’t there. And it came in just about the time that Flatt & Scruggs left Monroe – I think maybe just shortly after that. And that’s when, if you think about the birth of rock and roll, which came very shortly after that, just a year or two…

What’s the difference between rock and roll and early country music…it’s the backbeat. It’s that mandolin chop. That mandolin chop comes when your foot's in the air. If you tap your foot to music, the chop comes when it’s in the air, no matter what happens, and that’s the backbeat. And it’s been in music ever since – it’s the dominating factor of music now.

But, you listen to jazz or blues, or any other music from that pre-Monroevian period..ain’t no backbeat. It’s just not there. The downbeat was what defined music then. And I argued that in my keynote speech, and I didn’t get anybody to argue back against me. (end RT comments)

These comments were then followed by introduction to Watson Blues, where Ron says of Brian “he plays it just like Bill, only better.” And the music they then played just takes you to another planet…

So, that's just one mans's opinion. Glad I was there, though.