Monroe's Influence on Rock and Roll

[Rick Albertson]

After playing Bluegrass Part One (Twist) last night at a jam, another jammer was shocked to learn that Bill Monroe had written the song and had played a role in shaping early rock and roll.

Got me wondering about which of his songs were most influential, when were they first recorded, and who they impacted.

[Mike Bunting]

Rocky Road Blues has been a rockabilly staple. I once figured out Chuck berry's intro to Johnny B Goode and it was basically the same as the intro to Muleskinner Blues. I heard a story of bluesman Albert King knocking on the door of the Monroe bus one night, wanting to meet Bill. I think that great musicians transcend their genre.

[mrmando]

Elvis recorded "Blue Moon of Kentucky" in one of his early Sun sessions, did he not?

[Paul Kotapish]

Elvis recorded "Blue Moon of Kentucky" in one of his early Sun sessions, did he not?

He did, indeed. When asked about how he felt about it, Mr. Monroe was reputed to have responded, "Those were some mighty powerful checks."

[Mike Bunting]

He did, indeed. When asked about how he felt about it, Mr. Monroe was reputed to have responded, "Those were some mighty powerful checks."

I'm glad that Monroe had the integrity not to sell out to the money boys, though.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
from you-know-who

[Jeffff]

I no longer know what selling out means. Is it selling out to be paid a nice wage to play your music? At what point does a nice wage become selling out?

If you have played 1000 nights in strange bars for gas money and cheap beer and someone offers you a few bucks to make a record is that selling out?

If 10 million people love the recored you loved making is that selling out?

Bill Monroe played music for money. Is that selling out?

[Barry Wilson]

selling out is letting your music be used for a tampon commercial

[Jeffff]

Unless you are 70 years old and broke.

[Barry Wilson]

Like Neil Young and this note's for you. That said I write music pieces for commercials and background music in real estate videos as a side project. so I am one to talk hehe. it's fun doing instrumental stuff sometimes. I do music for fun though and not to make a living, so maybe not the best example..

[Jeffff]

I didn't mean to hijack the thread

[Rick Albertson]

Anyone interested in furthering my education re: the initial questions I posed?

1) which of his songs were most influential?
2) when were they first recorded?
3) which early rockers did they influence?

[allenhopkins]

Bill Monroe's in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, inducted posthumously in 1997; here's his R&RHOF "timeline" page.

I have to think his "influence" has more to do with attitude and innovation than it does with direct contribution. There are some Monroe songs -- Blue Moon of Kentucky perhaps the most notable -- that have been recorded in rock'n'roll style, and some early rockers like Buddy Holly, and later ones like Jerry Garcia, Chris Hillman, Bernie Leadon etc. played bluegrass before they got established in rock. But Monroe's example of instrumental virtuosity, stubborn adherence to an individual musical path, and high-energy delivery may be more to the point, of why he's seen as an influence on rock. There is also 1960's Monroe's willingness to add younger Northern musicians to his band -- as long as they played his music his way -- and his later-career openness to playing before younger audiences.

But Monroe never appeared to welcome rock or pop influences on his own music, other than some "And Friends" albums in the last decade of his life that included "mainstream country" acts, and perhaps a few songs or tunes in his repertoire. His all-acoustic style was firmly imbedded in the mid-1940's (a recorded exception or two, at his producers' suggestion, notwithstanding), and stayed unchanged for the next 50 years. So you can't think of him as "country rock" or "roots rock" or any " --- rock" hybrid: bluegrass all the way.

So rockers listened to Bill Monroe, and perhaps emulated some of his approach or attitude. Monroe listened to rock, as well, but never seemed to want to move toward it. Not that he couldn't have, but that would have clashed with his self-contained musical world, where he considered himself the definer of what was and wasn't bluegrass.

[Ed Goist]

It all goes back to the Blues, and before that, to the African-American Spiritual.
In this great mandolin workshop video Tim O' talks about how Monroe's early emphasis on the Blues likely influenced Chuck Berry, using Bluegrass Stomp as the classic example.

[Mike Bunting]

I no longer know what selling out means. Is it selling out to be paid a nice wage to play your music? At what point does a nice wage become selling out? When make your music with the goal of appealing to the mass audience and making it palatable to the most people possible and removing any aspect that might challenge of offending anyone. People come to Monroe's music, people come to Dylan's music, Monroe and Dylan did not chase the audience

If you have played 1000 nights in strange bars for gas money and cheap beer and someone offers you a few bucks to make a record is that selling out? No

If 10 million people love the recored you loved making is that selling out? No

Bill Monroe played music for money. Is that selling out? No

It's not hard to figure out.

[Mike Bunting]

Bill Monroe's in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, inducted posthumously in 1997; here's his R&RHOF "timeline" page.

I have to think his "influence" has more to do with attitude and innovation than it does with direct contribution. There are some Monroe songs -- Blue Moon of Kentucky perhaps the most notable -- that have been recorded in rock'n'roll style, and some early rockers like Buddy Holly, and later ones like Jerry Garcia, Chris Hillman, Bernie Leadon etc. played bluegrass before they got established in rock. But Monroe's example of instrumental virtuosity, stubborn adherence to an individual musical path, and high-energy delivery may be more to the point, of why he's seen as an influence on rock. There is also 1960's Monroe's willingness to add younger Northern musicians to his band -- as long as they played his music his way -- and his later-career openness to playing before younger audiences.

But Monroe never appeared to welcome rock or pop influences on his own music, other than some "And Friends" albums in the last decade of his life that included "mainstream country" acts, and perhaps a few songs or tunes in his repertoire. His all-acoustic style was firmly imbedded in the mid-1940's (a recorded exception or two, at his producers' suggestion, notwithstanding), and stayed unchanged for the next 50 years. So you can't think of him as "country rock" or "roots rock" or any " --- rock" hybrid: bluegrass all the way.

So rockers listened to Bill Monroe, and perhaps emulated some of his approach or attitude. Monroe listened to rock, as well, but never seemed to want to move toward it. Not that he couldn't have, but that would have clashed with his self-contained musical world, where he considered himself the definer of what was and wasn't bluegrass.

Pretty much agree with all that except the phrase " self-contained musical world, where he considered himself the definer of what was and wasn't bluegrass." I think that may make it sound sort of petty. I think that he was just a primitive artist who had a very clear vision of what he thought his music should be.

[maki]

Ed, thanks for the Bluegrass Stomp vid, that was fracking awesome!
BTW, hello everyone.

[Elliot Luber]

Man, was he ahead of his time.

[MandoSquirrel]

After playing Bluegrass Part One (Twist) last night at a jam, another jammer was shocked to learn that Bill Monroe had written the song and had played a role in shaping early rock and roll.

...

I had that reaction from a mandolin player, thinking "Bluegrass Stomp" was a Rock & Roll tune at a Bluegrass jam!

[Ben Milne]

When there are no more tickets available to your gig, you have sold out.
Not necessarily a bad thing now is it?

[allenhopkins]

Pretty much agree with all that except the phrase " self-contained musical world, where he considered himself the definer of what was and wasn't bluegrass." I think that may make it sound sort of petty. I think that he was just a primitive artist who had a very clear vision of what he thought his music should be.

I apologize if I made Monroe sound "petty." From all I've seen and read of the man, I think he was pretty fiercely protective of what he considered to be "his" music. Only in his later years was he quoted as taking any pleasure in the fact that others had adopted -- and built on -- the music he founded. When other bluegrass bands first appeared in the late 1940's and early '50's, he appeared to react jealously, as if "his" music had been "stolen" by Flatt & Scruggs, the Stanleys, etc. I do think he considered his "clear vision" -- which I agree he definitely had -- to be the definition of what bluegrass was, and should be.

Later on, he appeared a bit bewildered, though pleased, by the fact that the "long-haired kids" knew so much about his music, and knew when it was performed "right" (presumably, "right" meant "the way I do it"). Rock'n'roll audiences might react very positively to the energy, drive and instrumental skill of Monroe's music, though they might attach less value to the homespun lyrics and imagery, and the pervasive themes of mother, church, rural life and romantic love, often approached from a sentimental and "unenlightened" perspective.

I have puzzled a bit about the perceived connection between Bill Monroe and rock'n'roll; I wonder if Bill himself saw any such connection, or if there was an event that embodied such a connection. I'd like to hear from someone who could develop that line of discussion.

[Fretbear]

Later on, he appeared a bit bewildered, though pleased, by the fact that the "long-haired kids" knew so much about his music, and knew when it was performed "right" (presumably, "right" meant "the way I do it"). Rock'n'roll audiences might react very positively to the energy, drive and instrumental skill of Monroe's music, though they might attach less value to the homespun lyrics and imagery, and the pervasive themes of mother, church, rural life and romantic love, often approached from a sentimental and "unenlightened" perspective.

He told Sambo to "Stick with the fiddle..." You can make of that what you like....
When you get right down to it, Bill's life more closely resembled a classic bluesman's than anything else.
While he wrote and stole lots of songs, the themes that they evoked were often more theoretical in his own life than actual. He lived on the road, as much as any road-dog musician ever has or will, was a serial adulterer, and his religious views (at least from much of the Gospel he took credit for writing) was amongst the "Repent sinner or we'll watch you burn in hell" variety. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan.

[M.Marmot]

I dunno, for my own part i have to admit that i am dubious that Mr. Monroe had any direct or substantial influence on the development of Rock and Roll.

That Elvis covered one of his songs does not mean a lasting or profound influence, Elvis' early recordings, generally covers, liberally sample from a great variety of American singers and songwriters. In this instance Mr. Monroe was just one among many, and in my book one cover does not a substantial influence make. If the Monroe - Presley influence was more definite or sustained, say on a parallel with Guthrie - Dylan perhaps i might give it more credence as seminal for Rock and Roll.

That Mr. Monroe incorporates elements of the blues into his playing and compositions also seems to me a bit insubstantial as proof of a solid and singular influence on Rock and Roll. The forties and fifties not only boasted some fine Blues musicians but also scores of other musicians that could boast of a blues influence. That some of Mr. Monroe's blues licks might sound like those played by later Rock and Roll players is, on the face of it, not really that unusual... i'm sure the case could be made for many early musicians who played through the blues influence.

I do agree with those who point to the drive and energy that Mr. Monroe's groups played with as being a possible pre-cursor to Rock and Roll. I think on one clip of early Bill Monroe and Bluegrass Boys, and Mr. Monroe kicks off one number in a ferocious manner that belies the idea of acoustic music being genteel. Personally speaking, i'd still like some more direct proof of that being the case before i'd agree with the idea of there being definite and direct influence.

I'm not resistant to the idea of Mr. Monroe being a direct influence on the development of Rock and Roll, but, i would like to see some definite cases made to advocate that idea more fully. As things stand the best case i can possibly think of was Mr. Monroe's presence on popular radio programmes such as the Grand Old Opry would have given him a greater public exposure than most other recording musicians. Yet, even that in itself does not guarantee his subsequent influence on a later music genre, especially one that mainly appealed to teenagers who may not have heard or even been alive for Bill Monroe in his pomp. Perhaps, at best, Mr. Monroe's influence on Rock and Roll may be entirely indirect, but even if it was, in my opinion, this does not take any from his legacy and his music.

[mandopops]

I think implying Monroe had any influence on Rock & Roll is really a stretch.

Chuck Berry's Guitar influence was Louis Jordan's Guitarist Carl Hogan.

As the story goes, George Harrison was asked his opinion of Andres Segovia, George replied, "He's the father to us all." Segovia heard of this and said,"Their father? They play Electric Guitar, their not even my illegitimate children."

What made me think of that story?

Don't get me wrong I love the illegitimate children.

[Joe Mendel]

Didn't Emmy Lou Harris once say she thought Bill Monroe was the first heavy metal musician? Referring to his attitude.

[JimRichter]

This thread has been discussed before and with the same amount of disagreement.

I will need to look for the quote (it's in another thread I posted to a few years ago) but Chuck Berry was influenced by Monroe. Yes, he was influenced probably more directly by both T-Bone and Muddy Waters. However, Berry listened to the Opry, as did many other southern musicians and mentioned enjoying Bill Monroe by name. Remember, this was a period of time when A&R hadn't clearly compartmentalized musical genres as it did in the late 50s. Carl Perkins listened to the Opry and counted Monroe as an influence. The Everly Brothers were directly influenced by Monroe (and the Monroe Brothers) as their dad, I believe, worked with Monroe in the 40's and early 50's in tent shows. Elvis was obviously influenced. Then in the 60s, has had been mentioned, Monroe influenced many such as Garcia, Peter Rowan and David Grisman (who both founded the rock band Earth Opera and later Sea Train for Rowan and Richard Greene), Dylan, and Hillman.

Likewise, Monroe was influenced by a variety of music at that time. He may have denied it, but he was aware of other popular music and it definitely showed in the earlier Blue Grass Boys as he experimented with a variety of sounds until his sound gelled with Flatt and Scruggs. And, Scruggs was definitely influenced by Big Band music of the day as is apparent in his playing on Foggy Mountain Special, Dear Old Dixie, and the like. There was definite cross-pollination.

There is no stretch to say Monroe had an influence on rock and roll. The stretch would be to claim he created it or had a more direct influence on some than he did. It was a special time in popular music that was killed by the late 50's (especially in Nashville)