looking for help identifying an old bowlback mando

[JD Briggs]

Hello!

I recently acquired a very old, but virtually unusued bowl back mandolin. It has no wear on the frets, no scuff marks on the back of the bowl, etc. It has a butterfly inlay in the pickguard, as well as shell inlays around the edge of the bowl. It came with its original canvas case and a tuning pitch pipe. My luthier gave it a clean bill of health, so I have restrung it with light strings and have begun to play it. What a wonderful buttery smooth voice! Its quite obivious that its total lack of use over all these years had nothing to do with its sound quality. Unfortunatly, there are no makers marks, stamps, serial numbers, nameplates, brand markers, or anything of the sort on it.

I would very much like to learn who made it and when it was made. My Luthier guessed it was made about 1880. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!

JD

[mrmando]

We'll need photos, front and back. 1880 is a bit early for an American bowlback.

[Jim Garber]

Butterfly inlays are quite common, both on American and European instruments. I believe that in many cases the shops would buy the inlays already cut from suppliers, so you may find the same inlay on mandolins by various shops.

As Martin says, 1880 is prob on the early side esp for American mandolins. The bulk of these in the US were made to satisfy the mandolin craze which started late 1880s with the concertizing of the Spanish Students.

[JD Briggs]

would help if I attached pictures... *sigh*


JD

[Jim Garber]

My blind guess is lower end/budget Lyon & Healy from the shape of the pickguard. Prob no label since they made things for various stores across the country. The easier guess would be to say it was made in Chicago since one company or another were cranking out these mandolins.

[allenhopkins]

Sorta a "plain Jane" of this period, probably early 20th century, with sparse inlay work, modest purfling, and a non-ebony fingerboard with no position dots. Rosewood ribs, and a fair number of them; "rib count" is sometimes a guide to initial quality, the more the better. And a pretty basic case.

Glad that it's a good-sounding, playable instrument for you.

[JD Briggs]

Thanks to all for your feedback and ideas. The group I play with generally all use vintage(1900 or earlier) instruments, and I think this "new" mandolin will be a fantastic addition to that tradition. We get asked about the instruments we play all the time, and at least now I'll be able to tell people a little bit about it. It really makes no difference to me whether its worth $50 or $500, as I didn't buy it to set it on a shelf, or to resell it. I got it to play! Thankfully it has a fantastic voice. I am going to keep the old case, but did order a new one for when we travel.

thanks again!

JD

[Bill Snyder]

While it does appear to be in good enough shape, looking at the photos there is evidence that it has been played a fair amount in the past. That is not bad. It indicates someone else liked it.

[Jim Garber]

Is that fretboard covered with plastic or a light wood? I can't tell from the photo.

[mrmando]

It looks to me like brownish mother of toilet seat. And it does have position dots at frets 5, 7, and 10.

[Jim Garber]

That is what I thought. Very festive.

[JD Briggs]

The Luthier hemmed an hawed on that fretboard question, too. It sort of looks synthetic, but has a continuous wood type grain all down the fretboard. He guessed it might have been a slice of petrified wood, though I don't have any idea if that is correct or not. Although you really can't see them in teh photos, there are ivory colored position dots on the fretboard. Dots look like they are hand cut, though I do not know if they are actually ivory or not. I'll take a few closeup photos tonight, and will upload them tomorrow. Butterfly inlay looks to deffinatley be hand made, and does not look good enough to be a factory bought item. It does not have the extra scroll work that I've seen in most other butterfly inlays. Hopefully more details pictures will help.

JD

[JD Briggs]

"Brownish mother of toilet seat"? does that mean I need to wash my ahnds when I'm done playing it?

JD

[Jim Garber]

Butterfly looks like two different shades of tortoise celluloid. The MOTS fretboard is unusual in color. BTW here is an older thread on Mother of Toilet Seat (otherwise known as pearloid).

[michaelpthompson]

The Luthier hemmed an hawed on that fretboard question, too. It sort of looks synthetic, but has a continuous wood type grain all down the fretboard. He guessed it might have been a slice of petrified wood, though I don't have any idea if that is correct or not.

Petrified wood is actually stone and would be quite a bit heavier than any wood, even really dense ones out of which fretboards are often made. You'd be able to feel the stone texture on it as well. There are types of artificial wood with grain patterns, but the use of such things in mandolin construction seems unlikely.

[allenhopkins]

Might be wood-grained celluloid, or a standard non-ebony fretboard wood that's been "grained" with paint or dye. Pearwood was a common fretboard material on lower-end instruments, usually "ebonized" (dyed black to look like ebony). It's an unusual looking fingerboard, but you should be able to tell pretty easily if it's wood or a synthetic.

Definitely not petrified wood. I own a piece of that that my grandfather brought me back from Petrified Forest in AZ in the 1950's, and it's a chunk of rock; all the wood's been replaced with minerals over the centuries, so it has a wood-like appearance, but it's definitely not usable as a fretboard. Can you picture cutting fret slots with a diamond saw?

[JD Briggs]

I am relatively new to the world of mandolins, and especially to the terms and construction techniques of antique mandolins. I've never heard the term "mother of toilet seat" (MOTS) before. Thanks for the link to the background information. It would seem highly likely that the fretboard is coated with MOTS. It has sort of a pink/orange tint to it, and has fine "grain" lines in abundance which look like they could have been swirled as the process description described. Butterfly inlay is one piece. Backing inlay is one piece. Both appear to have been hand cut/placed. I do not see any extra inlay work on either piece besides the basic outlines. As soon as I get my camera working I'll add detail photos of both the fretboard and pickguard.

JD

[allenhopkins]

If it's a celluloid fingerboard, that points to a somewhat later date for the instrument -- nineteen-teens or 'twenties. I haven't seen any late-19th-century instruments with celluloid fingerboards, though more experienced Cafe´habitues may correct me there.

"Mother Of Toilet Seat" is a derisive term for Pearloid, a celluloid material that mimicked mother-of-pearl, and was often used to cover toilet seats. Despite the snarky nickname, it's found on many high-end instruments, especially tenor banjos, by Gibson and other manufacturers.

Example: Gibson "Florentine" Tenor:

[Jim Garber]

"Mother Of Toilet Seat" is a derisive term for Pearloid, a celluloid material that mimicked mother-of-pearl, and was often used to cover toilet seats.

Actually, I think of it more as a term of endearment.

I have a B&D Sultana tenor with lots of MOTS. I was at a friend's house (a luthier) and he has a modern toilet seat made of MOTS.

Celluloid has been around for quite awhile, tho it became more prevalent on instruments around the times Allen mentions.

[Jim Garber]

Similar, tho not exact butterfly mandolin on eBay.

White pearloid fretboard and slightly different shaped pickguard and inlay.

[MandoSquirrel]

Looks like one of the better low end L & H mandos, with a real nice looking pick in the case. Good fortune getting the case with it, also. They tend to disappear over the decades.

[JD Briggs]

Case is stiffened canvas with some sort of fuzzy lining. Case straps and carrying handle were leather, but are long since gone. Pick is small compared to what I'm used to, and is very stiff. Pick has 3 holes in it, though I'm not sure of the purpose of the holes. I also got a GDAE set of pitch pipes with it, too. There was also a single replacement string in the case. The package was marked "National Musical String Company New Brunswick NJ", or something like that. If memory serves me right, they opened shop about 1990. We replaced all the remaining strings with new, as I thought it would be safer for the mando that way.

JD

[Jim Garber]

It is good that you restrung with light strings. BTW here is some nerdy info:

Rutgers U Library has info on the National Musical String Company:

NATIONAL MUSICAL STRING COMPANY.
Records, 1897-1960.
ca. 27 cubic ft.
Manufacturing concern located in New Brunswick, N.J.; employed both women and men.
Letter books, order books, sales books, payroll records, ledgers, trade catalogs, publications and photographs.
Finding aid available.
Advance notice required to consult this collection.

Also from Wikipedia:

The National Musical String Company is a defunct music string factory located in New Brunswick, New Jersey. The majority of the buildings that once made up the factory are now rotting due to urban decay. The company was to make the first harmonicas in America, and became the world's largest producer of steel strings.

Lots of info here:

Hello All,
My name is Chris and I am a New Jersey researcher studying the National Musical String Company, maker of Black Diamond, Bell Brand, Lyric, and other string lines, as well as the first harmonicas produced in the United States.
I am hoping that some of you out there might have a little information on the company. I know there is a very nostalgic sense about NMSCo products but take a look at some information I have provided below and please post anything you might be able to add to it.

1897 - Thomas Nelson, Jr., owner of the Rice Musical String Company of New York, makers of the Bell Brand, Alexander M. Paul, owner of the Standard Musical String Company of Connecticut, makers of Black Diamond, and George Dow Emerson owner of a string factory in Bellville, New Jersey combine their interests to form the National Musical String Company.

1898 – The NMSCo moves into its new home in New Brunswick, New Jersey.

1899 – The NMSCo purchases the American Musical String Company.

1917 – William R. McClelland purchases the NMSCo form George Dow Emerson, the last of the NMSCo founders.

1932 – McClelland unexpectedly dies of a heart attack. With no wife or children the NMSCo is eventually bought by C. Bruno and Son, Inc. James and Frank Gibson, former employees, then rivals of the NMSCo (the Gibson Musical String Company), are put in charge.

1970 – The NMSCo is purchased by the Kaman Music Corporation.

1979 – The NMSCo is renamed the Kaman Musical String Company and moved to Connecticut.

1982 – The old New Brunswick NMSCo building is declared a national historic landmark and still stands today.

2001 – Black Diamond and other NMSCo trademarks are purchased by The Cavanaugh Company and relaunched from Florida.