What do you practice when you practice bluegrass?

[SincereCorgi]

Okay, so I know how to practice classical music. I have a sheet of music, and I've got the goal of interpreting it beautiful with no mistakes, and to that end I have all kinds of strategies: focusing on the difficult spots and giving them more attention, playing it through several times to build up stamina, etc etc. I have a lot of experience with that.

I don't know how to practice bluegrass. I could use my classical music techniques to learn a fiddle tune or a break note-for-note, or my composition skills to write a break and learn it that way, but I don't want to do that- I want to improvise over tunes and melodies and have a certain flexibility when I'm playing in the moment. That is a pretty vague goal compared to, say, playing a sonata or something. For example, lately I've been taking Blackberry Blossom and trying to get it really cold and clean. But, because it's bluegrass, I have various variations I play on it in different octaves, but it doesn't really feel like 'practice' if I'm playing it differently every time. Is a hard part even a 'hard part' if, theoretically, you can just substitute some easier little variation that serves a similar melodic function?

I'm getting along okay, sort of making up a practice method as I go (I've also worked through some books like the "Mandolin Picker's Guide to Improvisation"), but how do good, serious players approach bluegrass practice? Is this something where everybody just has to arrive at their own approach? I guess this question could apply to almost any improvisational music. Do you just play over material tune ten times, accepting the fact that some will be better than others and hoping for the best?

[pickloser]

I play a BG song for which I want to learn a break into a recorder, usually using a guitar, but sometimes the mandolin. If I want to practice fills or harmony, I sing the lyrics, but mostly I just record the verse chords several times through. If I want to practice harmony on the chorus, I sing the chorus melody. Sometimes, I'll play the verse chords and sing the lyrics once, then play the verse chord thru several times between choruses. Then I play and sing along with myself. Over the recorded sung verse, I practice fills. Over the chords to the verse, I practice improvising. If I hit on something I really like and want to remember, I stop the recorder and tab it out, or I switch folders on the recorder and record the part I liked, announcing (so I won't forget where it goes) first something like, "this sounds good over the--whatever--in [name of song]. Repeat, repeat, repeat, until I have a break with which I am happy, or at least satisfied. I have the chords now to lots of songs on my Zoom H2 and every few days, I run thru all the breaks, playing over the recorded chord progressions. If I recorded the rhythms played slowly, I'll re-record them a little faster, then a little faster, as I progress with the break.

[Cue Zephyr]

I've been wondering this myself. Great topic!

[JeffD]

Play along with CDs. Use a software slowdowner as needed.

Ricky Skaggs and I have practiced together more times than either of us is willing to say.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

"Bluegrass" is a pretty broad category. Frame it one way and you've got instrumentals that were composed on specific instruments (e.g., Foggy Mtn Breakdown was first a banjo tune, Wheel Hoss a mando tune, etc.), and you also have songs with fills and breaks. Frame it another way and you've got music that originated within the bluegrass tradition, music brought in from Irish and Scottish music, tunes brought in from old timey and Appalachian traditions, and music brought in from everywhere else, including rock, jazz, the Beatles, folk, and so on. And you could also frame it in terms of playing styles that stick pretty close to the melody and other playing styles that improvise widely around the chord progressions.

So how you prepare for all that depends on *your* preferences and priorities.

Personally, what worked best for me was playing with my friends and fitting in with what the jam or band was doing. Getting out and playing with other people is crucial, in part because no matter how you frame this music, spontaneity is an important aspect.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I use CD's as does JeffD & i use I'net Bluegrass radio stations as well. I play along with almost anything just to be able to 'do it' if i ever need to.They all add to my personal box of 'tricks & licks'. I use the radio stations just as i'd use a 'jam session' to try my own things out. If i come across a specific tune that i want to learn,i'll stick with that for an hour or 2, then move on & come back to it a couple of days later - i don't want to get sick of it before i've learned it,
Ivan

[Mandolin Mick]

If I'm cold on the mandolin, I play Ebenezer Scrooge by Bill Monroe. That gets the fingers flying!

But, since I play solo mandolin 99% of the time, I usually work on something new. Usually, a hymn that I rearrange to Bluegrass style for my work at the Milwaukee Rescue Mission.

[Denny Gies]

I use CD's too, especially The Dreadful Snakes, David Grisman, et al Home is Where The Heart Is and the old Scaggs and Rice CD. Also, there is stuff stuck in my head that I try to get out and learn. Some fiddle tunes are good warm-ups for me too.

[SincereCorgi]

I should probably start a new thread since most people seem to have taken this the wrong way (probably the pseudo Raymond Carver-esque post title). What I meant is: in classical music, there are lots of good strategies for getting a piece up to stuff, most of them based around breaking them down to give intensive attention to tiny difficult passages. In improvisational music, to do this would be paradoxical, since theoretically you're the one inventing those passages fresh each time. So how does one approach improvised music from an intensive technical perspective?

[farmerjones]

The last mega thread about the "why all the fiddle tunes" i hit on some pretty concrete things. Still seems valid to me. Improvising is Art. There is no "wrong." There is accepted and not-so-much. When i practice, alone. This is the place to make the mistakes. To color outside the lines. To push the boundaries. If you're afraid to sound bad when you're alone, you're not pushing it. When i practice, i can assure you, i sound like a car wreck. Actually worse than when i'm playing, if it's possible.

OK wait. back the truck up. Can you play 50 Bluegrass melodies straight? Trick question. There aren't 50 Bluegrass melodies. But you have to have a enough melodic vocabulary to esssentially be bored. You have to be able to play it straight first. To the point of nauseum. From that familiarity comes the contempt. i know some like/use tab or notation. That's a good way to get the straight melody. I've done it myself. But how do you get to improvisation (create on the fly) by going down a road that's already paved? By learning a melody by ear, i'm already "approximating." If i'm not stone cold settled on how something goes, it's easier for me to veer off, i think.

Niles, where you at?

[AlanN]

There aren't 50 bg melodies? You're right. There are hundreds.

[farmerjones]

Member the old campfire joke; "There's only seven tunes brought over from the Olde Country, and four of them are Flop Eared Mule."

[doc holiday]

Since this thread is linked to the fiddle tune thread, here are my thoughts on the subject. My take is that you can't play too many fiddle tunes. They are a great way to learn the instrument. I just blazed my way through that thread, & can't recall if anyone mentioned Texas style fiddle tunes. Our own Pete Martin has a book out on Texas style fiddle tunes for the mandolin. What I like in the playing of people like Sam Bush (when he is a backup musician) is his use of subtle variation rather than "out there improvisation" Listen to Benny Thomasson for example. The Texas style shows that you can catch people's ears by subtle variations on the melody.....I far prefer this style to pentatonic noodling over chord changes.....ain't no rock n roll....oh and....I practice by playing fiddle tunes & BG songs in the keys the people I jam with sing in..

[farmerjones]

doc, i hear ya.
Right now i have Fred Stoneking in the CD player. While not Texas style, his Missouri style is "ornate." When i listen, i imagine how to de-construct the tune to a minimalist version. Of course, to a Mo. fiddler, it wouldn't be the same tune, but none the less.
The old fiddlers i know/knew speak of "making a tune out of it." How each did it is like a fingerprint. Embelishment.
I love Texas style fiddling too because it's format is different, as you go from variation to variation. Sam Bush playing Sally Goodin. What did he say? 29 variations. If you can de-construct and study how each variation differs, you can have a good set of tools to use on something else.

[montana]

I use Band in a box to practice fiddle tunes and to practice improv on the basic types of bluegrass tunes.

[JeffD]

So how does one approach improvised music from an intensive technical perspective?

Well if the goal is to be a better improviser - there are various threads with lots of advice. All of it great.

1 - Things like pentatonics and arpeggios etc., are often suggested as good things to practice.

2 - Good improvising in bluegrass, (IMO) starts with the tune. So knowing the tune and knowing the chord changes in the tune is the beginning. This points to practicing tunes, and practicing the chords.

3 - As far as improvisation goals, I like what Chris Thile says, "deconstruct the melody and figure out what makes it 'it'. " The take away is that your improv emphasizes, recognizably, beautiful features and the unique energy of the tune. In the best case, your break is about the tune, without being the tune. (About the tune, as opposed to it being "about you".) To practice this, I think you just need to practice it.

Just take bluegrass tunes you know (see 2 above) and improvise. Practice with CDs, go to lots of jams and play. Just do it a lot. Getting good at that spontaneous real time composition in front of people, I think, can only be done by getting yourself into that position often.

I hope this helps.


For the sake of honesty I must add this disclaimer - by my own standards I am a very weak improvisor. My breaks are too close to the melody, I don't stray far from home because I fear getting lost. So best to listen to a lot of opinions and advice, certainly more of it from folks who are better at this than I am.

[Alex Orr]

For example, lately I've been taking Blackberry Blossom and trying to get it really cold and clean. But, because it's bluegrass, I have various variations I play on it in different octaves, but it doesn't really feel like 'practice' if I'm playing it differently every time. Is a hard part even a 'hard part' if, theoretically, you can just substitute some easier little variation that serves a similar melodic function?

The fact that you're playing the song but altering it here and there is perfectly fine. That's just bluegrass. Fiddle tunes have a root structure and melody but are pretty fluid otherwise. I rarely play them exactly the same every single time myself. Also, good move playing them in different octaves. I had an instructor who suggested that every time you learn a fiddle tune you should try to get it in two octaves. Often the way you go about playing it in a different octave will suggest new ways to improvise on the tune, including alternative licks and double stops that might not be as easy or sonically pleasing out of a different position.

In terms of general practice, the best thing is to just learn songs and play them. Bluegrass is a genre with a lot of standards, and to know the genre, you really should learn those standards. And yes, there are a lot of them.

In terms of usual practice, I spend about eight minutes warming up with scale exercises and chord practice in a specific key. Next I'll spend at least twenty minutes a practice session playing through my repertoire of tunes, both fiddle tunes and vocal tunes. Usually on the vocal songs I'll play the break I know (which is usually a combination of the melody and my own ideas) as well as a couple of attempts at improv. Same with the fiddle tunes. I use a metronome when doing this.

I also usually spend 15 minutes on the current song I'm learning...and I am always working on learning a new song. When I feel I know it well enough (or get bored by it) I move on to a new song.

Currently I'm working my way through The Mandolin Picker's Guide to Bluegrass Improvisation, which means 15 minutes on that followed by 5-7 minutes reviewing old licks and then 15 minutes or so of putting my iTunes bluegrass playlist on shuffle and working at quickly finding the key, chord changes, and improvising a lead break to whatever songs come up.

That's basically how I practice these days, but some days I just want to play tunes, or maybe work through an old DVD on a particular area. If I had more than 60-90 minutes a day to practice I'm sure I'd do more stuff, but that's what I can comfortably carve out so it is what it is.

[Patrick Bouldin]

I should probably start a new thread since most people seem to have taken this the wrong way (probably the pseudo Raymond Carver-esque post title). What I meant is: in classical music, there are lots of good strategies for getting a piece up to stuff, most of them based around breaking them down to give intensive attention to tiny difficult passages. In improvisational music, to do this would be paradoxical, since theoretically you're the one inventing those passages fresh each time. So how does one approach improvised music from an intensive technical perspective?

For me, knowing the scales in all the keys was a definite prerequesite to good improv. Doing them up/down, harmonic scales, 2X, etc. Then I'd say another HUGE improvement for me was to know the scales with double stops in different keys.

Patrick

[mando-tech]

I've been wondering this myself. Great topic!

....depends if you are aspiring to learn vocals or instrumentation,-or both ?

...vocals have to be memorized word perfect,one should not attempt to sing in public using a music rack !
...inre to your instrument, if mandolin -you should learn to chop in all 12 keys before you concentrate on picking instrumentals !
...inre to chords, you should learn the chart numbers early on !
...inre to pitch, you should determine and memorize what key each song belongs in !
...listen to tapes, CDs,radio, and watch videos,...-you gotta live it and breathe it !
...practice 2 to 4 hours per day ...-try to get in your 10,000 hours ASAP !

[fatt-dad]

My take? Listen to music. Try your hand at whistling along melody, harmony, improvise, take a break, etc.

Learn to whistle the mandolin. You can't play a type of music that you can't hear in your own head first.

I think learning fiddle tunes sort of gives you context on ear training - because you call up these compelling melodies in your head and they just come out of your fingers! I'm pretty confident that if I listened to enough bluegrass, I'd know what I wanted to play and them just play it? Don't know, I'm really practicing my right hand and any melody will do. There are hundreds up there to call up though!

f-d

[jshane]

I don't think you can approach "practicing" improv via a technique. That's like killing for peace. You "practice" improvising, by improvising. A LOT. Play over CD's, play over soundtracks, play with others. A LOT. Try to play what you hear in your head. A LOT.

I am a very much a journey-man on this road... but I really really believe this.

[JonZ]

I should probably start a new thread since most people seem to have taken this the wrong way (probably the pseudo Raymond Carver-esque post title). What I meant is: in classical music, there are lots of good strategies for getting a piece up to stuff, most of them based around breaking them down to give intensive attention to tiny difficult passages. In improvisational music, to do this would be paradoxical, since theoretically you're the one inventing those passages fresh each time. So how does one approach improvised music from an intensive technical perspective?

Your question is basically “How do you practice improvising effectively?”

Most importantly, to practice improvising, you have to practice improvising. Practicing scales, arpeggios and other people’s breaks is not improvising. They are tools you can use as a basis for improvising.

To make practicing improvising more manageable, there are several things you can do.

Work on a smaller section of music.
Work within a smaller selection of strings or frets.
Slow the music down.
Use a visual reference (fretboard chart).
Focus on just getting the rhythm right.
Focus on just getting the tones right.
Focus on not stopping when you make a mistake.

Within this framework, select various tools to improve.
Today I will explore adding 7s and 7bs to the pentatonic scale.
Today I will incorporate hammer ons.
Today I will shift positions.
Today I will incorporate elements from that riff I like.
Today I will use chromaticism.
Today I will skip strings.

Changing the tools you sharpen regularly will challenge you and bring new elements into your playing. The selections you make will define your style. If you want to play like a certain player, figure out the tools he or she is using. When you learn someone else's break, don't just mimic--analyze the choices being made and the tools being used. A teacher can help with this.

You should spend time playing “in the moment” and just letting whatever comes out come out, and also spend time refining licks, phrases and entire breaks. By methodically composing, you are practicing the decision making process you will use in real time when you improvise.

To move forward, constantly challenge yourself with new tunes, new tools, faster speeds, etc.

The people I have seen learn to improvise the fastest tend to push variation rather than repetition. They are constantly moving on to new challenges, rather than doing a lot of rote repetition.

[Mandoplumb]

Practice knowing the fingerboard, what notes go with what, different double stops scales and runs within chords. Work up a "break" around a melody play it till you can do it in your sleep then change it. One of Don Reno's sons said he had never heard his dad play a break the same way twice. Dempsey Young worked out a break before recording a song then played it very close or exactly the same at each performance, he said the people expected it to sound like the record. Both were improvising maybe not on the fly but they were playing what they heard in their heads.

[JonZ]

Jazz trumpeter, Freddie Hubbard, joked that students who learned his solos wer “practicing his mistakes”.

[Pete Martin]

A lot goes under “Bluegrass”.
Traditional or not?

Mechnical basics:
Right hand pick direction and tone
Left hand dexterity and accuracy
Pinkie exercises
Tremolo
Speed practice
VERY slow precision practice

Bluegrass Language:
Playing singing melodies in double stops
Monroe style cliché phrases
Other players cliché/ideas (such as Sam Bush)
Singing what I want solos to sound like, very slowly (you can't play what you don't have in your mind)

Instrumental Tunes in Bluegrass style:
Learn the melody!
Determine how much melody or non melody I want to play

Improvising:
Practicing keeping chord notes with rhythm section
Blues phrases
Cliche phrases if I want to sound like someone else
How much “outside” influence do I want?