Barney Kessel Playing A Gibson 12 String Mandolin?

[AlanN]

This tailpiece is indeed about to blow. They weren't engineered for the pull of 12 strings, especially not fat ones like these. Check the rip across the bottom by the edge of the body:



The sideways tabs would have ripped sooner, but I think the fold will die sooner. There are ways to fix this tailpiece. Any new base that you might put on will have the same engineering issues, so it makes more sense to rebuild the existing one.

Via welding?

[Timbofood]

“Aye, Captain, she’s gonna blow, I canna change the laws of physics!”

[Paul Hostetter]

Via welding?

You don't weld cuprous alloys, welding is strictly for iron-based alloys. And even silver soldering (AKA brazing, the correct term for joining copper-based alloys on a molecular basis) would yield a net loss in terms of strength over the original. Which was already not strong enough.

But it's possible to braze/silver solder a patch over the entire bend where it's tearing. This would entail some high-level silversmithing and then replating, as the brazing would wreck the plating.

What gives me pause is how the little tabs or hooks holding the string loops are obviously failing as well. There might still be room enough to put in four new hooks that are oriented the right direction. Maybe it'd be wiser to make a whole new base from scratch that would accept and hold the original cover.

[AlanN]

And this well-informed post is precisely why I play the mandolin...and leave the crafting to others...

[MikeEdgerton]

It's not surprising to see that it's failing on the bass side.

[MikeEdgerton]

...Maybe it'd be wiser to make a whole new base from scratch that would accept and hold the original cover.

That would probably be the best answer. Do you think they used that screw on strap button as extra holding power to keep the tailpiece in place?

[Paul Hostetter]

I've seen that type used when there's no tapered hole to hold a normal endpin. The screw in the center is a regular wood screw, it just goes into the wood of the endblock. The base of the aluminum button fits the hole in the tailpiece, but it's snugged up against wood.

I'm still trying to work out the body size. Going by Mr Baird's measurements, it's built on neither a mandolin or a mandola body, it's somewhere in between. Which I find rather odd. The 14" scale is what I would interpret as Gibson's normal (13-7/8") mandolin scale.

[MikeEdgerton]

Is it anywhere near the wide body mandolins of the 30's? You would think they would have used some existing tooling and forms.

[Russ Donahue]

This has been an awesome thread, and one of the most interesting things I have come across today. Thanks all (and its good to see Paul Hostetter in the mix).

[Timbofood]

Is it anywhere near the wide body mandolins of the 30's? You would think they would have used some existing tooling and forms.

Just what I was thinking, Mike. Did they have a “wide track” body hiding under a bench?

[John Rosett]

Here's Tommy Tedesco's "A-50-12" for auction: https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vin...ription-071515

[John Rosett]

They have Barney Kessel's too: https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vin...ription-071515

[Timbofood]

So now we know there were two!
Any clues as to,starting bids?
I’m not in unless it’s under ten bucks..

[f5loar]

yes, two of them up for sale at the same time. Both made in 1963. Odd that one has the logo in gold stencil and the other has it in pearl inlay. Truss rod covers are different. Other than that are identical. So no doubt a custom order and likely not more than 3 or 4 made in the mid 60's. Hard to put a value on these but should bring more than a regular A40 or A50 from same era.

[brunello97]

You don't weld cuprous alloys, welding is strictly for iron-based alloys. And even silver soldering (AKA brazing, the correct term for joining copper-based alloys on a molecular basis) would yield a net loss in terms of strength over the original. Which was already not strong enough......

I know this is an old post from our amigo, Paul, but we TIG weld non ferrous metals all the time in the shop: aluminum (of course) but also bronze and copper.

I'm pretty good at it, but it can be a tricky, particularly with metals that rapidly conduct heat. But that's what TIG is good for in my experience.

Whether it is the appropriate solution to this problem is another question. I do a lot of brazing operations as well, but either the TIG or the brazing is likely to severely trouble the plating as Pablo correctly notes.

Mick

[Jeff Mando]

People are talking about the tailpiece being "about to blow" after 54 years! Sounds like it did it job just fine and they got their money's worth. Just buy another used tailpiece and you'll be good for another 54 years.......jeesh!

[f5loar]

People are talking about the tailpiece being "about to blow" after 54 years! Sounds like it did it job just fine and they got their money's worth. Just buy another used tailpiece and you'll be good for another 54 years.......jeesh!

An easy part to replace on a vintage Gibson.

[Bernie Daniel]

People are talking about the tailpiece being "about to blow" after 54 years! Sounds like it did it job just fine and they got their money's worth. Just buy another used tailpiece and you'll be good for another 54 years.......jeesh!

No need to replace it just break out the silver solder and LA-CO braising flux paste and that thing will be stronger than new.

[Timbofood]

OK, has the auction happened and, if so, which one of you lucky folk “won”?
I’d replace the TP, since you’d need to remove it to solder it anyway, no brained for me.

[BradKlein]

Eight out of ten mandolin players use LA-CO® for all their High Heat Resistance Silver Brazing Flux Paste needs! ;-)

[John Rosett]

One of these is for sale at Elderly now: https://www.elderly.com/products/gib...m_source=zaius

[Bob Bass]

Hi John-

The one at Elderly is likely the one that belonged to Tommy Tedesco, which Cafe member abaird85 borrowed from the "older gentleman" in the fall of 2017 for a performance. Tommy Tedesco's had the A model neck joint at the 12 fret, and Barney Kessel's had the A model neck joint at the 15th fret. I wonder if the tail piece base on Tommy Tedesco's has been repaired or replaced. A number of teens Gibson mandos had tailpiece bases w/12 hooks.

Bob

PS- enjoyed your mandolin playing on a couple of Django style jazz standard tunes you posted a couple of years back just after you had returned to the mandolin. On Django style jazz standards when playing w/a regular group of friends, I mostly play a brass bodied 1930s National guitar w/a spyder bridge lap style w/a Stevens bar, but play acoustic mandolin on "All of Me" and "Djangology".

[John Rosett]

Thanks Bob. I play lap steel also, and have been working on some HC tunes, as well as some other swing standards.

[Bob Bass]

Hi Folks-

Looks like I need to modify my post #97! After looking closely at the Heritage Auction pix of both the Kessel and Tedesco A50-12 Mandolins, it is more likely that the A40-12 mandolin at Elderly is the A40-12 that Cafe member abaird85 borrowed in 2017. And my remark on the fret #s at the neck joint for the two A50-12s should be disregarded.

Sorry for the error! Just jumped on it a bit too quickly without enough consideration.

Bob

[allenhopkins]

All of us with Gibson-esque tailpieces with the four "extra" hooks, originally designed to have the first two courses wrapped around the closer-to-the-bridge hooks, than anchored after a 90º bend to the perpendicular hooks further down -- we have to acknowledge that the real reason for the design, was to provide 12 hooks total, to accommodate Kessel and Tedesco.

How did Orville G have such forethought? A veritable Nostradamus...

Now, if the tension of 12 strings just didn't pull them tailpieces apart --