Plumbing a Schertler Dyn-M to a 1/4 inch Female Carpenter Jack?

[Perry]

Did you have a luthier do this post-build?

No it came pre-installed in a Mix A5. I did buy another internal Schertler for a new instrument install and will have that done by a luthier.

I bought one of the last internals that had a simple 1/4". From what I can tell from the mysterious company that is Schertler, it looks like the internals now have an XLR and require a plate on the side of your instrument.

[Jim Nollman]

I just heard back from a guy at the Schertler main office in Switzerland. He wrote:

First of all, thanks for using our system and for writing us about your problem.

Since the beginning we have offered our XLR cable Clip (check our web page - third line: http://www.schertler.com/homepage_sc...sories-en.html ). This is a very simple solution to the problem. Simply put the clip on the XLR connector of the dyn and when connected to the stage microphone cable hang it to your instrument belt. This way it will be secured. Another solution would be our Violin version pickup that has the same frequency cut as the DYN-M but a mini 3-pol connector right on the instrument body. This can be easily disconnected and the mini connector can be secured on the instrument trough it's build in clip.

RE warranty: The schertler Warranty is still valid if you modify the cable, only on the Capsule and not on the cable modified connections.

We will update our webpage explaining the Cable Clip issue more precisely for the other Mandolin players.

Hope my E-mail answer to your problematics and help you to continue enjoying the DYN-M on stage.

For any further questions you may need I am at your disposal.



I wrote him back, asking where we can all buy this handy little clip online. Since the US rep didn't know about it, I suspect you can't buy it in the USA. I also asked if, in a future design of the dyn-M, he considers using a Neutrik or Hosa XLR both of which have an on-off switch. To explain why mandolin players, especially, need this switch, I quoted the world famous homily :

Onstage, mandolin player spend half the time tuning, and half the time playing out of tune.

[mandroid]

The schertler may not need a preamp from a technical perspective, but the short and somewhat delicate thin lead that you get with a schertler means that it may not be possible or desirable to go straight into the board.

I don't understand the issue .. you plug the XLR end into a microphone cable,
I have one, I modified with a switch, the cable end made by Nutrik.

I stuff the thin cable and the combined plugs in my pocket.
I have a Vest with a Zipper closed pocket , that is perfect.

you would plug the other end of the mic Cable into your acoustic amp, stage snake,
or wherever microphones go, in the mix.

and the Mic cable takes all the wear and tear of stepping on it, fine ..
having the plug in a pocket, is a strain relief so none on the thin pickup's cable.

[mandroid]

I too have a Mix , the Schertler 1/4" Jack is TRS, which is the same 3 conductor scheme as XLR .
You can find adapters to use a common Balanced , double ended cable to XLR plug if needed.

My AC60 has a duplex jack so either TRS or XLR cables work..

[mandroid]

Paul C. [#22]Perhaps another option: a make up, DIY,
an XLR in, and Out, 2 panel mount jacks, in a small project box, add a belt clip,

maybe add a volume pot in the circuit.. whole thing passive, so no batteries to change.
a small cleat to wind up extra cable on the input side. to keep it from getting tangled..

just a thought

[Thompson II]

I run my shertler into a Baggs DI. I plug the XLR into a rewired female XLR - 1/4 jack lead so I didn't need to touch the schertler wiring. I bundle the shertler lead (i.e. dont unwind it when lifting out of the box) and velcro it onto the strap just above the tail button. The rewired XLR is also velcro'd onto the strap so any sharp pull on the flex is taken by the strap. Pockets are empty and connectors protected. Works for me!

[Neal Clark]

Has anyone taken the step to actually connect the Dyn-M to a 1/4" carpenter jack? If so, what are your thoughts about it after the fact? I notice that Paul Hoffman from Greensky Bluegrass is doing just that (pic below), and was wondering if anyone knew who was doing the work for him? Seems to sound quite good on his rig.

On a related note- does anyone have an older style Dyn-M they'd like to sell?

[mandroid]

Bought a Mix A5 [#29], they use a Schertler Pickup installed and a TRS 3 conductor 1/4" jack.. end button
the schertler internal jack strap button is Anodized blue aluminum.

should you want to tackle soldering the external version on, and a carpenterjack, then a TRS/stereo jack would still use all 3 conductors.

Balanced cables are 3 conductor 1/4", they are also made mixed, to have XLR plugs on the other End.

does anyone have an older style Dyn-M they'd like to sell?

they come up in the classifieds occasionally..

So do the Schertler Preamps, 1 in 2 out , 2nd, dry, to a house board .
primary to a powered monitor(?)








...

[pops1]

If you use a TRS carpenter the wiring will be the same. If you plug a 1/4" mono into the carpenter not sure what will happen. I do know you can wire an XLR which is the same as TRS to a 1/4" mono. Pin 1 and 3 go to ground and 2 is your hot wire. Try wiring the tip to hot and the ring and ground together, plug it in and try it you can't hurt anything.

[Neal Clark]

Thanks all. Seems fairly straightforward.

I have an internal K&K in my Flatiron but I'm not totally happy with it. May be upgrading mandolins in the near future and want to try the Dyn-M route before installing an internal.

[Ray(T)]

Before anyone tries this out, can I suggest that they check which Dyn-M they have. The one I have (current model) requires phantom power and can't be wired to a two pole jack - it wouldn't work.

I suspect that the previous model was a dynamic mic, which didn't need phantom and therefore could.

Please feel free to contradict me if you know better!

[almeriastrings]

+1 to what Ray(T) says.

No problem with the dynamic version - but TRS jacks can be problematic with +48v.

[pops1]

I know they had phantom powered mics, but most PA's only send phantom to and XLR and not to the 1'4" input. This may have changed as my stuff is older, almeriastrings may be more knowledgeable about this.

[Neal Clark]

It is my understanding that the older Dyn-M is dynamic (i.e., not phantom powered), whereas the new style includes a phantom-powered model (Dyn P48) and non-phantom-powered model (Dyn Uni).

See this thread for a discussion: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...-M-the-new-one

[Ray(T)]

It is my understanding that the older Dyn-M is dynamic (i.e., not phantom powered), whereas the new style includes a phantom-powered model (Dyn P48) and non-phantom-powered model (Dyn Uni).

See this thread for a discussion: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...-M-the-new-one

Thanks for reminding me of that thread. The last post from Schertler states "Unbalancing it and go in a device as the previously mentioned preamp would not work. Even if it was a passive that was not recommended because unbalancing causes signal loss and can also make noise issues. The new version runs with phantom power (22V to 48V). For those who do not have the Phantom Power we have the DYN-UNI that is still passive as the older models."

i.e. unbalancing - connecting one of the connectors to ground as previously suggested.

Going the other way - connecting an unbalanced source to a balanced input and turning on the phantom power can have more dramatic results; you don't want to go there!

[almeriastrings]

Going the other way - connecting an unbalanced source to a balanced input and turning on the phantom power can have more dramatic results; you don't want to go there!

Not unless you'd like a sudden flash, a loud bang and smoke pouring from your gear!

Absolutely essential you establish EXACTLY which version you have here.

[pops1]

Is there /4phantom power in the 1/4'" input? I haven't seen that as yet and the OP is talking about using a 1/4" tip ring sleeve. The tip ring sleeve would be balanced, but I do not believe phantom runs thru the 1/4" inputs so if you keep a 1/4" you may have less output, but no sparks, smoke or other bad things by plugging into a 1/4" input.

[Neal Clark]

Thanks Ray(T). I may be a bit confused at this point. For the sake of everyone's clarity, I'm going to try to summarize what I think is the consensus here:

(1) The old Dyn-M (or new Dyn Uni), which are both passive/non-phantom mics, can be wired to a TRS (balanced) carpenter jack. The wiring is straightforward as the XLR and TRS cables have the same wire connections.
(2) You don't want to wire either of the balanced pickups (referenced in #1) to an unbalanced carpenter jack (per the above quoted statement from Schertler).
(3) You absolutely cannot wire the new Dyn-M P48 to a carpenter jack (TRS or unbalanced) because it's phantom powered.

Assuming this is correct, I have two follow up question on point #1. I assume that, once its wired to the TRS carpenter jack, I then have to run a TRS 1/4" cable to my preamp? If this is true, are most pre-amps (mine's a Redeye, but also thinking of other common preamps on the site- Baggs, ToneBone, etc.) handle a balanced signal input from the TRS 1/4"?

Thanks. - Neal

[mandroid]

Happen to have an XLR mic low impedance matching transformer, to higher Z 1/4" TR plug .
a common use; plug a dynamic mic in 1 end and then plug the 1/4" into a guitar amp, for harmonica players , etc.
[ it also works with old Dyn M ]

The + /hot signal is the tip, the return/cold signal and braided shield/ground are combined when there is no separate ring contact.

guitar/ 'instrument' cables are wired tip /+) .. and return thru the braided shield. via sleeve contact, of plug.


...Piezo pickups and the pre amps made for them are TR instrument cords and plugs and sockets.


with the Installed pickup in my Mix A5, I can use a guitar cord, or a balanced cable..
duplex input on my Roland AC 60, for it's mic channel will take TR, TRS And XLR cables.

[pops1]

I don't see anything in the Redeye literature about a TRS input. Inserting to a standard 1/4" would be the same as wiring it that way. Again with no phantom, no problem. Schertler says the gain will be lower and it may make noise, and that may be a problem.

[mandroid]

if only a 2 contact input, the + is still your signal , the other 2 are combined/shorted , together.

[mandroid]

No it came pre-installed in a Mix A5. I did buy another internal Schertler for a new instrument install and will have that done by a luthier.

I bought one of the last internals that had a simple 1/4". From what I can tell from the mysterious company that is Schertler, it looks like the internals now have an XLR and require a plate on the side of your instrument.

they have both jack types .. the web page has chosen to show the XLR one first, but you can find the alternate there also.

[almeriastrings]

No.

No phantom on 1/4" inputs. This would be very risky as people would plug all kinds of unsuitable and easily damaged things in there....

There are a couple of rare exceptions, where low voltage (11-15v) phantom can be provided on certain highly specialized preamps, such as the Headway EDB-2, but this really is a 'special' arrangement designed for very specific applications. On a 'normal' console - no.

[almeriastrings]

Assuming this is correct, I have two follow up question on point #1. I assume that, once its wired to the TRS carpenter jack, I then have to run a TRS 1/4" cable to my preamp? If this is true, are most pre-amps (mine's a Redeye, but also thinking of other common preamps on the site- Baggs, ToneBone, etc.) handle a balanced signal input from the TRS 1/4"?

No.

The the best way to do this would be to use a balanced TRS-XLR cable and send the signal straight to the XLR mic input on a mixer. Plug the TRS into the carpenter jack BEFORE connecting to the mixer. All the EQ you should need will be in the mixer. No other preamp required. Essentially, all you are doing then is making the connection detachable. The electret (condenser) versions of the Schertler are intended to be used straight into a mixing console (or acoustic amp's microphone XLR that supplies phantom power).

[Neal Clark]

No.

The the best way to do this would be to use a balanced TRS-XLR cable and send the signal straight to the XLR mic input on a mixer. Plug the TRS into the carpenter jack BEFORE connecting to the mixer. All the EQ you should need will be in the mixer. No other preamp required. Essentially, all you are doing then is making the connection detachable. The electret (condenser) versions of the Schertler are intended to be used straight into a mixing console (or acoustic amp's microphone XLR that supplies phantom power).

Thanks for the great info almeriastrings. While I agree that this approach is the easiest/cleanest, and arguably doesn't require any 1/4" conversion save the benefit of having a carpenter jack, my situation is a bit different as I'm running a pedal board and need to use a preamp (currently a Redeye) with numerous effects in the FX loop. In other words, my intention in converting the XLR input to a 1/4" is so that I can run a 1/4" into my preamp/effects (with a phantom powered XLR return to the board from the Redeye).

Any suggestion based on this setup?

Thanks.