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Thread: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

  1. #51
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    The part of this discussion which no-one has looked at is the origin of the mid-scale length (20-23") octave mandolin. While there have been what the Europeans would call an octave mandola around probably since the 1880s, with a short 17-18" scale,
    Actually , the 20-23" OM is what is called an octave mandola in the UK (my 21" OM is definitely being called that by Fylde).

    It seems that, with its high variation of scale length, tuning and number of strings, this instrument family resembles mutations of a virus, which makes it so hard to get a vaccine against OMAS
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  2. #52
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Actually, the 20-23" OM is what is called an octave mandola in the UK (my 21" OM is definitely being called that by Fylde).
    I was thinking more of the mandolin orchestra instruments, who I suspect started using the term octave mandola (as distinct from tenor mandola in viola tuning) well before Fylde. I think everyone agrees that no-one is ever going to sort out that bit of trans-Atlantic confusion

    I'm in the middle of trying to write a history of the blasted things, and I am sure that there will be those I offend in some way.

    cheers

    graham

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    Registered User Kyle Baker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    On the other hand, what Alec Finn plays is definitely a bouzouki. It LOOKS like a bouzouki, doesn't have eight strings like an octave mandolin and is being used to play Irish music. What he does with it is what I would call 'Irish bouzouki'.
    The bouzouki that Alec Finn plays is definitely Greek, there's no debating since he always stayed with a bowl back. His zouk is an older-style trixordo three course (six string) instruments tuned DAD. DAD is the original Greek tuning for this instrument. Therefor, you might think that a flat back instrument with DAD in the tuning, such as GDAD or ADAD, is almost close enough to warrant the name "Bouzouki". The term "flat-back bouzouki" would be better to describe the modified instrument.
    I think bouzouki players and Octave mandolin players will have to agree to disagree on this topic since I can't see anyone willing to change their minds on the issue.
    All I know is I play the bouzouki, and GDAD is all I know. My father plays the octave mandolin since he played mandolin before he went to the longer scale. Call whatever you play whatever you like, in the end that's all that matters.
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    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    I would just like to add, in response to Dagger's comments, that interestingly enough, the "Irish" GDAD tuning really has nothing to do with the octave mandolin as there weren't any such critters around when the Irish bouzouki was adapted/invented in the early 70s.

    The tuning comes from Johnny Moynihan's altered mandolin tuning, which he transferred to the Greek bouzouki he traded said mandolin for in the late 60s while he was a member of Sweeney's Men (with Andy Irvine and Joe Dolan).

    And the first "Irish" bouzoukis (built specifically for Irish music) were definitely coming off the inspiration of the Greek instrument's use in Irish music. The person to ask about that would be Peter Abnett, who built the first one for Donal Lunny in 1970.

    Kyle's comment that GDAD includes the Greek trichordo tuning is right on, and is one of the reasons why the Greek/Irish bouzouki connection is stronger than it might appear.

    Incidentally there is now a bit of a growing trend toward using the Greek trichordo bouzoukis in Irish music. For years the only highly visible person doing so was Alec Finn (who, incidentally is the Guest Artist at ZoukFest in a few weeks), but now there are several players, Mick Conneely and Ruairi McGorman among them, who, no doubt due primarily to Alec's influence, prefer the 3 course Greek instrument.

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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Yes I suppose that's right, Roger.

    I can see that the DAD part of the Irish bouzouki GDad tuning is indeed very close.
    At the same time it is not far off mandolin tuning an octave down, so I'm really not sure I know what to say.
    David A. Gordon

  6. #56
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    The part of this discussion which no-one has looked at is the origin of the mid-scale length (20-23") octave mandolin. While there have been what the Europeans would call an octave mandola around probably since the 1880s, with a short 17-18" scale, and Regal Octophones in the 1920s, and then tenor guitars from the 20s onwards, the modern octave mandolin I suspect is a product of the 1970s, made for people who wanted a four course Irish bouzouki type instrument, but found the scale length a bit intimidating and/or wanted to play more melodically.
    The "modern octave mandolin" probably does date from the 70's, or maybe 80's, with companies like Flatiron and Weber making intermediate-size instruments between mandolas and mandocellos. I'm not sure they were actually satisfying an existing market, so much as doing it because it was a fun project, and the companies were small enough to play around with some ideas and see if people were interested. I'd love to know more about the history of that, if anyone can dig it up.

    However, any history of the "octave mandolin" still has to account for that one existing (as far as we know) example of a Gibson octave mandolin from 1904, mentioned in an earlier thread here. I guess we still don't know if it's a one-off custom order, or an experiment to test the waters, or if more than one was ever built. Either way, at least someone on the American side of the pond was thinking about the utility of this shorter-scale (21 1/4") neck on a body sized larger than a mandola and smaller than a 'cello. And with a carved archtop too! Because that was the tone the American players (mostly classical?) at the time were shooting for, whether it was a mandolin, mandola, or mandocello.

    As I said earlier in the thread, and this is just my opinion; anything that looks derived from the "big Gibson mandolin" concept seems to be pretty clearly an octave mandolin, without that direct lineage from the Greek bouzouki. Anything with the longer scale, flat top and overall build of a Greek bouzouki (minus the bowl back) seems pretty clearly to be a generic "bouzouki," to me anyway, and regardless of tuning. It's the hybrids in the middle, which can show any combination of the two ends of that spectrum -- carved archtops, flat tops, long scales, short scales, oval holes or F-holes -- that can get a bit muddled in terminology, and are probably best left up to the owners to describe what they are.

  7. #57
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    As I said earlier in the thread, and this is just my opinion; anything that looks derived from the "big Gibson mandolin" concept seems to be pretty clearly an octave mandolin, without that direct lineage from the Greek bouzouki. Anything with the longer scale, flat top and overall build of a Greek bouzouki (minus the bowl back) seems pretty clearly to be a generic "bouzouki," to me anyway, and regardless of tuning. It's the hybrids in the middle, which can show any combination of the two ends of that spectrum -- carved archtops, flat tops, long scales, short scales, oval holes or F-holes -- that can get a bit muddled in terminology, and are probably best left up to the owners to describe what they are.
    I think that is a pretty succinct way of putting it if restricting the discussion to the features of the instrument, rather than musical context or technique. I do see a very clear difference between a mandolin approach and a bouzouki approach, and the two tunings have everything to do with that.

  8. #58
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    The "modern octave mandolin" probably does date from the 70's, or maybe 80's, with companies like Flatiron and Weber making intermediate-size instruments between mandolas and mandocellos. I'm not sure they were actually satisfying an existing market, so much as doing it because it was a fun project, and the companies were small enough to play around with some ideas and see if people were interested. I'd love to know more about the history of that, if anyone can dig it up.

    However, any history of the "octave mandolin" still has to account for that one existing (as far as we know) example of a Gibson octave mandolin from 1904, mentioned in an earlier thread here. I guess we still don't know if it's a one-off custom order, or an experiment to test the waters, or if more than one was ever built. Either way, at least someone on the American side of the pond was thinking about the utility of this shorter-scale (21 1/4") neck on a body sized larger than a mandola and smaller than a 'cello. And with a carved archtop too! Because that was the tone the American players (mostly classical?) at the time were shooting for, whether it was a mandolin, mandola, or mandocello.
    I have sent an email to Rich Westerman, with a hope he might be able to throw some light on OMs. He was certainly building something like that in the late 70s.

    Gibson in 1904 was, I suspect, still working out the market, especially for mandolin orchestra instruments. I am quite happy to accept that OM as a prototype, which never went any further, maybe because while there was lots of music for mandolin/mandola/mandocello/guitar ensembles, an octave mandolin might not have fitted in or seen to be necessary or overly complicated the product list. Being able to market an equivalent of a string quartet might have been seen as a better strategy. Just some thoughts

    cheers

    graham

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post

    But it does seem that there is something of an octave mando movement in the US that is completely independent from Irish trad music and the bouzouki. Maybe John McGann will chime in here :-)
    Well, I still consider myself a musician who plays trad Irish music (and other styles) rather than exclusively a trad Irish Musician, so this should be heard as Voice of the American Mongrel. I do play a lot of Irish music in GDAE, both melody and backing, but I've also played the instrument exclusively in the Wayfaring Strangers, which is much more of a trad American/jazz brew of styles. I've played it on Django style gigs, Irish gigs, rock gigs, bluegrass gigs, pretty much whatever I can get away with...

    I've been known to use modal tunings on occasion, especially while recording, but I like to stick with one tuning for performances. I find my brain operates more efficiently this way, or rather, I can shut off the "WTF" section of the brain that would be ON in other tunings-particularly when improvising; it would be a lot easier playing "set pieces" in alternate tunings, but i like to make stuff up as I go...

    Chris Thile, Sarah Jarosz, Sierra Hull and other of us Young Americans love the octave mandolin, and maybe the approach is different from the classic Alec Finn/Donal Lunny/Andy Irvine/etc. ways of playing the instrument, but just as the "soprano" mandolin has a lot of identity outside of bluegrass, why shouldn't the OM outside of Irish trad?

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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    'but just as the "soprano" mandolin has a lot of identity outside of bluegrass, why shouldn't the OM outside of Irish trad? '


    No reason at all, of course. I think Sarah Jarosz in particular may well inspire a new interest in the instrument as she seems to be going to get pretty big. At first glance you would think she was playing guitar, however, so people might not quite realise what she is playing. I've always really enjoyed Tim O'Brien's song accompaniments on his bouzouki, whose Nugget instrument also looks like a guitar. 'Americana' played on an OM/bouzouki can and does work very well.

    Another couple of thoughts:

    In Scotland I don't seem to see so many of them in bands these days. There seems to have been a return to the guitar. I'm not sure what the position is in Ireland and in US Irish music circles.

    The bouzouki can be used by non-Greek musicians in other types of music - not just Irish or American. I am thinking in particular of the amazing French guitar,oud and bouzouki player Titi Robin.
    Check out this video of his band playing with musicians from Pakistan at a festival in France.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nes7B...layer_embedded
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    I recall years ago hearing Dave Richardson tell the story of his first Sobell instrument. As he tells it, he was mostly playing tenor banjo with the Boys of the Lough at the time, and he asked Sobell to build him a wooden instrument like a tenor banjo but double-strung like a mandolin. That must have been in the late '70s or early '80s, I'd guess. So I suppose one could say that Richardson's story suggests there may have been yet a third more or less independent line of descent for these critters - derived from neither the greek bouzoukis nor from Gibson mandolins, but rather from tenor banjos.

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Andy Irvine also points to Stefan Sobell as the guy who took his Portuguese guitar's design and tweaked it into the current OM configuration...

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    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptritz View Post
    I recall years ago hearing Dave Richardson tell the story of his first Sobell instrument. As he tells it, he was mostly playing tenor banjo with the Boys of the Lough at the time, and he asked Sobell to build him a wooden instrument like a tenor banjo but double-strung like a mandolin. That must have been in the late '70s or early '80s, I'd guess. So I suppose one could say that Richardson's story suggests there may have been yet a third more or less independent line of descent for these critters - derived from neither the greek bouzoukis nor from Gibson mandolins, but rather from tenor banjos.
    Dave Richardson told me that story too, but he said that he previously had taken the idea to another builder before meeting Sobell. That first instrument is pictured on the cover of the first Boys of the Lough LP. It was not a complete success and when Richardson met Sobell, the latter, who was building dulcimers at the time, commented that he could do much better and so he built one for Dave.

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    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by John McGann View Post
    Andy Irvine also points to Stefan Sobell as the guy who took his Portuguese guitar's design and tweaked it into the current OM configuration...
    Yeah, but wasn't that the genesis of Sobell's cittern concept? I started getting Stefan's catalogs starting in about '82 and I don't remember him ever using the term "octave mandolin."

    It's interesting that both Andy's Portuguese guitarra and waldzither were strung with four courses and Sobell's first citterns were both 4 and 5 courses. He did not limit the cittern concept to 5 courses as has become common today.

    Sobell also credits Andy with showing him GDAD tuning, which he lists as one of the ideas that contributed to is "cittern" idea.

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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    You're quite right.

    Sobell used to offer citterns in 4 or 5 courses, and as I already said he sold me my instrument as an 8 string cittern. Although I still tend to refer to it as my cittern, I am aware that he probably wouldn't call it that now. What he would call it is indeed the problem.

    When I started playing it, there were a lot of Sobell instruments around in Scotland played by Ossian, The Battlefield Band and others.

    I think the first time I actually saw one played was by Tom Gilfellon - the guitarist with the Newcastle group The High Level Ranters. He produced it at a guitar workshop at a folk festival in Inverness. It sounded great. I believe Tom put it up for sale not too long ago. Dave Richardson, who like Tom comes from the North East of England, was a big influence on my own choice of instruments.

    Stefan Sobell is also based in the North East of England, not too far from Scotland in fact.

    Although the influence of Irish music was strong in Scotland at the time, it was really the availability and general attractiveness of Sobell instruments that made people want to play them. Most bands were using them to explore their own Scottish music, I would say, rather than going for an 'Irish' tuning. Also bear in mind that many Scottish bands began to incorporate Scottish bagpipes into their sound around this time. There are far more Scottish pipe tunes in the key of A than the key of G, so cittern tunings were devised which were A based.

    Although the use of these kinds of instruments by Planxty and the Bothy Band undoubtedly got people in Scotland interested in trying them, it seems to me that their use in Scotland - particularly of Sobell citterns- developed in a somewhat different way to Ireland.
    Last edited by Dagger Gordon; May-21-2011 at 7:33pm.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Were those early Sobells flat-tops, or induced arch/flat-tops, or carved arch tops? Anything involving an arch would surely be a parallel evolution to whatever was happening over on the American side, with extensions or resurrections of the Gibson mandolin style. I mean... why do an arch at all, if the Greek bouzoukis weren't built that way? This is all very interesting.

    FWIW, here's what Stefan says on his current web site. Obviously the current builds are evolutionary, but he does mention both "curved" and carved soundboards:

    "My original concept of minimum stress construction, rigid neck joint, and curved or carved soundboard remains the same, but bracing patterns, soundboard shape, bridge shape and size have all changed, as well as many construction details."

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    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Were those early Sobells flat-tops, or induced arch/flat-tops, or carved arch tops? Anything involving an arch would surely be a parallel evolution to whatever was happening over on the American side, with extensions or resurrections of the Gibson mandolin style. I mean... why do an arch at all, if the Greek bouzoukis weren't built that way? This is all very interesting.
    All archtops, as far as I have seen. I don't think he started making "flattops" until much, much later, and those were guitars for the most part (I have seen one or two flattop citterns but I think they were one-offs).

    Stefan has described the origin of his archtops citterns/bouzoukis/octave mandolins as being a 1930s Martin archtop guitar. He paired approach to the top with the body shape and neck/body joint of a Portuguese guitarra, so yes, an American influence, but it was a guitar, not a mandolin.

    The "curved" tops he's referring to are, I think, his "flattop" guitars.

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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Stefan Sobell's influence on these instruments has indeed been truly enormous.

    There was a thread here about 'Swedish octave mandolins' a couple of years ago, where once again the question of what they are called came up.
    Bob Deivert talks of the use of Sobell 'citterns' in Sweden in the late seventies/ early eighties. Apparently Ale Moller used to use Greek bouzoukis but had trouble with them warping in Sweden so he moved on to Sobells. The instruments have developed in their own interesting way over there - being adapted in very clever ways to suit their music.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ctave-mandolin
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    When I started playing it, there were a lot of Sobell instruments around in Scotland played by Ossian, The Battlefield Band and others.

    Although the use of these kinds of instruments by Planxty and the Bothy Band undoubtedly got people in Scotland interested in trying them, it seems to me that their use in Scotland - particularly of Sobell citterns- developed in a somewhat different way to Ireland.
    Not forgetting the The Easy Club - a fantastic band who owed a lot of their sound to both Sobell bouzouki and guitar

    Bertie

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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    It's interesting that both Andy's Portuguese guitarra and waldzither were strung with four courses and Sobell's first citterns were both 4 and 5 courses. He did not limit the cittern concept to 5 courses as has become common today.
    Sobell's first cittern had four-courses (photo attached) and was built for himself in 1973 according to his website. The first 5-course cittern was built for Tom Gilfellon around '74/5, I think, and had two points on the body. That particular cittern was for sale a few years ago on Stefan Sobell's website (wish I'd saved the photos). IIRC, in the text of the ad, it said that Sobell was rather opposed to the idea of 5 courses, but Gilfellon insisted.

    Patrick
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    Registered User Talabardio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Sorry, I guess I just don't buy into/care about the Irish-to-Greek, Sweeney's Men narrative... what I play is neither irish nor a bouzouki... not that there's anything wrong with those things. Seems like a lost battle to keep the 'irish' label on instruments, all around the world. That's what the liner notes on euro CDs are showing, anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    Well, maybe it's not "real fun" if you don't care about the history of the instrument..."Irish" + "bouzouki" completely covers the origin of the instrument... But it is probably inevitable that other names will come and go, used by people with agendas that don't include Irish trad music.
    Last edited by Talabardio; Jun-02-2011 at 4:36pm.
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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talabardio View Post
    Sorry, I guess I just don't buy into/care about the Irish-to-Greek, Sweeney's Men narrative... what I play is neither irish nor a bouzouki... not that there's anything wrong with those things. Seems like a lost battle to keep the 'irish' label on instruments, all around the world. That's what the liner notes on euro CDs are showing, anyhow.
    Care to propose an alternative?

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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    well... a dreadnought isn't a battles ship, a piccolo will never carry your luggage, an OM guitar is not used in orchestra's, a jumbo is not an elephant... a grand auditorium would probably not be heard in the average auditorium,a mandolin makes thin slices...french fries aren't french, hamburgers live in hamburg as do berliners live in berlin, not all bubbly is champagne, beavers look like giant rats and pie is something you eat, Spa is a city in my country. glasses are made to serve drinks in, yet they help me see better , at least the first couple ; )... it's an " Irish" bouzouki alright... .
    What about musical genres? Irish ?? Celtic? Trad. ? I think we all know what is meant by " IRISH" bouzouki. it's a new instrument. Or should we call it a "Planxtychord"?

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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    oh...and "ZOUK" is a music style in the carribean

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    Default Re: Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

    Quote "'I think we all know what is meant by " IRISH" bouzouki. "

    Yes, I think we do.
    David A. Gordon

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