Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

[JeffD]

right now I'm busy compiling a series of Lloyd Loar's essays written in 1920-21 for publication. I think it's time he got to speak for himself...
Joe

Wow. Now that is something I really look forward to. Is there a time line for publication?

[Timbofood]

Joe, I really enjoy the fact that your book has been referenced so many times and has answered many questions which used to take months to sort out. Looking forward to any more work you throw yourself into!

[Jim Garber]

Time flies...I actually have enough new material for a second volume or an expansion of the first one.

But right now I'm busy compiling a series of Lloyd Loar's essays written in 1920-21 for publication. I think it's time he got to speak for himself...

Joe

Joe: We need some definitive information on Handel tuners... I hope when you get to revisions and expansion of the first one that you will have more info on that and other suppliers. I found those sections interesting.

[mike b]

I found a Gibson A-Jr with OHSC in my attic. Can't read model #. No logo on headstock. Sticker on inside appears to be original. How can I identify? <removed by Moderator-Limit commerce to the classifieds> Have plenty photos.

[allenhopkins]

I found a Gibson A-Jr with OHSC in my attic. Can't read model #. No logo on headstock. Sticker on inside appears to be original. How can I identify? Would like to sell it. Have plenty photos.

1. Not quite sure why you added to this thread, rather than starting a new one; this one's basically about the Spann book on Gibson serial/factory order numbers.

However --

2. The "model number" is "A Jr." The mandolin was made by Gibson for a few years as their "entry level" model.

3. If you look inside, up toward the neck, there should be a number on the neck block. That's the factory order number (FON), which was a number assigned for internal use during manufacture. That, along with the Spann book, can be used to assign a manufacturing date range, though not necessarily a shipping or sale date.

4. Yours is a "paddle-head" -- the headstock flares outward toward the top -- which might make it from the range 1919-1923. After that, A-Jr.'s were made with a "snakehead" headstock, tapering toward the top.

5. "Snakehead" A-Jr.'s bring a premium, selling at over $1.5K. "Paddle-heads" are listed at a bit over $1K. Yours looks in good shape, has what looks like an original case. I'd ask $1.2-1.4K for it and see what happens.

[houseworker]

Allen's valuation feels pretty optimistic. Auction sales on eBay have been closing at under $600, albeit needing a bit of work.

[MikeEdgerton]

There's no way this will ever sell for a grand. The way you determine the value is to go to eBay, check the completed auctions for the auctions that are listed in green. That means it sold. Gibson mandolins on eBay generally have prices that are in Hollywood and they stay that way for months until the seller finally figures out that it's not worth as much as they thought. Some might never figure that out. There's currently a similar vintage pumpkin top A with the tailpiece cover and for $800.00 or best offer with free shipping. That mandolin is head and shoulders above this model and it's been out there a while. A 1914 AJr in great shape sold for 542.00. You might be able to peruse these yourself with this link. There are several models that are higher Gibson models that sold in the $800.00 range in this list right now.

[Jeff Mando]

As I like to say, it is a "buyer's market" for 100-year old Gibsons!

[allenhopkins]

Appreciate the commentary. Mandolin Brothers had a 1924 "snakehead" here for $1,750; Folkway Music had a "paddle-head" here for $1,295 Canadian. Artisan Guitars listed this one as "sold" at $1,800.

Now, did they really get their asking prices for these? Dunno. There are trade-ins, and negotiations, and who knows? Private and eBay sales go for less, generally, but there's quite a distance between these dealer prices and the estimates above.

Just 'cause you ask $1K, doesn't mean you can't come down if the market won't support the asking price.

[MikeEdgerton]

If they got those prices it simply proves Barnum's theorem. The snake maybe, the paddle, somebody could have done much better. You really can't compare the prices at a big retailer to the real world though. In the unknown condition this one is in he should do a happy dance if he gets close to $500.00.

[houseworker]

I think that Allen is somewhat naive in thinking that list prices from well-known dealers equate to selling prices. Normally they don't. But dealers have a strong commercial interest in forcing prices up and their inflated list prices are part of that. Dealers aren't keen for you to know what they really let instruments go for since that would be deflationary.

Major auction houses have the same self-interest in preserving the illusion of high prices. They'll 'buy in' prominent lots that fail to attract suitable bids if they think it's to their long term benefit.

In the fine violin trade, discounts of between 20% and 40% on list are the norm. My experience of looking for a nice F-4 some years ago suggests that mandolin dealers are not too far out of line with the violin world.

eBay completed auction listings have a big advantage over dealer and auction house listings in that you know that the item has actually sold to a real world buyer for the price quoted. Because of eBay's reach, they can be taken as a fair guide to the true market value of an item.

[allenhopkins]

I think that Allen is somewhat naive in thinking that list prices from well-known dealers equate to selling prices. Normally they don't...eBay completed auction listings have a big advantage over dealer and auction house listings in that you know that the item has actually sold to a real world buyer for the price quoted. Because of eBay's reach, they can be taken as a fair guide to the true market value of an item.

Hmm...think I addressed this a bit in Post #134 above. Did Mandolin Brothers sell that "snakehead" A-Jr. for $1,750, as it was listed? No way to tell. Fact remains that a very reputable (although somewhat top-of-the-price-scale) dealer was asking that amount. And that they sold it, for what I would have to infer was a price at least based on the listed price. After prolonged negotiation? With a generous trade-in for another mandolin, or whatever? After coming down $1K? I don't know.

And, in fact, none of us knows. The number of A-Jr. mandolins listed for sale, on eBay or wherever, at any given time, is going to be quite small. Yes, dealers try to get top price for what they sell, and often negotiate downward from their "list price." I've been the beneficiary of that many times. On the other hand, dealers want to sell, not hold on to inventory; they also may be more informed than private sellers on auction sites, who may let items go at well-below-market prices (not so true any more, when anyone can review listings and eBay sales via Google).

Were I in mike b's position, I'd have no hesitation in asking $1K for the A-Jr., and being prepared to bargain. What it sells for in the end, depends on a whole host of factors that none of us can accurately anticipate, and that most of us will never learn when the transaction's complete.

[Mandolin Cafe]

Noting the anniversary of this important publication on this date 2011. Although there are various publication dates bouncing around, amazon is notoriously wrong a good part of the time or their dates are a moving target is our observation.

[f5loar]

It is good to keep Spann's book as the best guide to dating prewar Gibsons. Many dealers still use the older Gruhn/XXX guides and have no clue the Spann book is out there.

[walter carter]

Xxx?

[William Smith]

Its wonderful treasure trove of information, I'm waiting on a more comprehensive list of all the known #'s of the 30's rarities like F-5's, 7's,10's and 12's etc.... known serial #'s would be the S###! As a 30's nut "for some reason" I'd love to see that list! Also the missing link #'s of the 20's stuff! We all know there still out there being discovered. Now that would be a book I'd buy without any hesitation!

[William Smith]

Tom do you mean the early lists by Benny Martin, Darryl Wolf etc...those lists? Curious Gibson fanatic here!

[Jeff Mando]

I'm in a minority here, I guess. I don't understand the fascination with knowing the exact day, year, etc. for most instruments. If you have some experience with vintage Gibsons, most of the time the instrument's features will tell you when it was built within a few years, usually with a quick glance. It's not like anyone is going to confuse a 40's instrument with a teens instrument, are they?

[Mandolin Cafe]

I'm in a minority here, I guess. I don't understand the fascination with knowing the exact day, year, etc. for most instruments. If you have some experience with vintage Gibsons, most of the time the instrument's features will tell you when it was built within a few years, usually with a quick glance. It's not like anyone is going to confuse a 40's instrument with a teens instrument, are they?

Mandolin Cafe is a relatively small community--in terms of the global internet--of people of all types and interests, ethnic backgrounds (careful, don't tell anyone), musical styles, parts of the industry, ages, backgrounds, interests, etc. If you can't get that then it shouldn't be a bother to anyone in our mind. There is a good number of people interested in the very unique history of Gibson that is still unfolding but with lots of questions and answers. Gibson is a pretty big deal, and Spann's book is as well.

But we also have small groups of folks interested in Italian folk and classical music played on bowlbacks, jazzheads delving deeply into theory discussions, folks with an interest in the finite details of finish materials, seekers of bargains on Craig's List and eBay, and folks worried about why someone might be called a "picker," and at least a few overly obsessed in our mind with every micro detail of Northfield's new mandolin case, though highly unlikely they'll ever own one. Power to them, but doesn't mean we need to question them. But that wouldn't even cover 5% of the history of this forum.

We prefer to think this is all a good thing. Lots more for you to worry about not understanding it appears, unless you accept you're among people that are enjoying the discussion they're having. That's kind of the purpose of this space.

[mrmando]

It's not like anyone is going to confuse a 40's instrument with a teens instrument, are they?

Happens all the time!

[David Lewis]

I find Spann’s book fascinating. What he couldn’t find - the alloy used in banjo rings. What he seems to confirm - masterbilt mandolins have tap tuning. I read it not as an appraiser or anyone who’s ever even seen a classic Gibson In the flesh but as someone fascinated with the history of the company and as. A professional historian admiring the detail.

[f5loar]

Cars and guitars *(mandolins too) have different values based on year made. Compare the price of a 1959 Cadillac Fleetwood to a 1958 Cadillac Fleetwood. Some want to know the year made as they seek out a birth year model. Compare the price of a Dec. 1924 F5 to that of a Dec. 1925 F5. Big difference!

[mandopaul]

Would anyone with the new book look up an old Gibson A pumpkin Serial # is 34767 and the FON stamp is 3455. Does it say when it was made and the ship date?

[AndyV]

Ads for used instruments so often state "sells new for (MSRP) dollars!" Who pays MSRP?

[AndyV]

I need to check my attic!