1796 Giovanni Battista Fabricatore mandolin

[Marijan]

I`d just like to say hello to all forum members for my first post. In short I`m Marijan Radaljac from Slovenija. My professional occupation is a small luthier workshop. Making violin family instruments, repairs and occasional restorations.

I had some contacts, hoping to have more, with few people from forum, when trying to get informations and opinions about the instrument I got in possession recently.
I`m slowly running through the collection of knowledge and expertise present here on this site, trying to learn more about this area of instrument making and it`s history.
In meanwhile I would like to share few photographs of the instrument I luckily find, with no particular question at the moment, but I`d certainly appreciate any thoughts or opinions.

It is similar instrument to one that was shown in greatly documented Eric`s treads about 1793 Fabricatore restoration, but with slightly richer ornamentation on the fingerboard.

Thanks for great forum. I hope you will enjoy the photos.
Best,
Marijan Radaljac

[Marijan]

Part II

[Marijan]

Part III

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Marijan Radaljac,

Congrats with this wonderful Gio. Batt. Fabricatore mandolin. It is a very nice (late) example of the Early Neapolitan Mandolin in the Mandolin Family and judging from the photos it can likely be restored into a fully playable mandolin. It is a 'late' example in terms of development of this mandolin type.

Are the bridge and nut lost or do you still have them? If not Eric or myself can easily help you out with photos of original Fabricatore examples to copy. The best thing is to restore it in every aspect (materials etc.) as close as possible to how the origial instrument was build in 1793.

If you have the time to 'up date' us every now and then here at this topic at the Mandolin café, it would be very much appreciated. It is very nice to see and read the progress of restoration of such a highly important mandolin.


Success and best greetings,

Alex.

[Richard Walz]

Wonderful, I would love to have this instrument for my next recording project... hint, hint.... congratulations!

[Jim Garber]

I am interested to see what the bracing is on this instrument and how it differs from later, late 19th century mandolins.

Thanks so much, Marijan, for posting these photos.

[Marijan]

Thank you Alex for opinion and informations,
yes bridge and the nut are missing parts. So are two string buttons. Two original ivory ones are still there. So is one original ebony peg. I have seen the photos of original pieces that you sent to Eric, but I would be most grateful if you, or Eric, would be willing to mail me full size shots and original measurements of the bridge and saddle
on my mail:

marijan.radaljac@amis.net

Otherwise, I still have doubts, mainly of the moral kind, about idea to attempt the restoration job by myself, despite the fact that I would be able to perform it technically, as luthier. I am aware of limitted knowladge about this particular field of instrument making, and since this is a historicaly important instrument, my doubt perhaps make some sense. It is tempting on the other hand.

If I go with the restoration, and decide not to put mandolin on the market in »as it is condition«, which was an option that was prevailing at first, and not so tempting after few days of thinking things through, I`ll certainly document the process and post descriptions and photos on the forum.
In that case I`ll be very grateful for every possible suggestion and information, you are willing to share.

Structural damage is not to extensive, and ornament parts are all there, beside parts of the ivory strips, some purfling, and damaged tortoise shell on the head. I worked with mastic filler before. Tortous shell can present a problem.

Jim, I`ll take few right side shots where top is slightly open, and bracings can be seen. If I open it I`ll post full set.

Richard, my prediction is that you will have to delay your recording session for few days, if you want to use this one, but it will be ready for the next one for sure.

I`d really like to hear this one being played.

Thank you,

Marijan Radaljac

[Richard Walz]

Marijan, there are a number of luthiers who have quite some experience with this type of instrument and restoration thereof. I can recommend Wolfgang Fruh (in Paris) as one person who has repaired and constructed a fair number of early mandolin family instruments. You can call or write him if you have questions : tél: +33 (1) 42526582 email : lepointdaccroche.fruh@wanadoo.fr
I warn you, he loves to talk...

You should probablly do all right in anycase and we all look forward to seeing this mandolin have a new lease on musical life.

Best wishes.... Richard

[Marijan]

Thank you very much Richard. I`ll write to mrs. Fruh wherever I decide to do the restoration job by myself or not. You can see from the length of my posts that I don`t hate long talks either. So no problem.

I re read my last post, and tried to find edit button... When I talked about the lack of experience with this kind of instruments, I talked about me, not having enough expirience, not about luthiers in general! I hope I wasn't misunderstood and that I didn't offend anyone.

Jim, this is he best I could do, before opening.



Bracing placement looks the same as on Eric`s Fabricatore. Two high bars some 8 mm from the edge of the soundhole, lower one tilted, and lowest one 25 mm from the lower high one. Heights 19mm, 20mm, aprox. 10mm from highest to lowest. Bended top is reinforces as on Eric`s one. As I sad, I`ll post detailed photos and measurements if I open it.

Best,
Marijan

[Margriet]

Congratulations ! It is a lovely instrument and I am happy to hear that it once will be played again.

The coincidence happens that we obtained a few weeks ago a similar instrument that needs repair, in some respects the same. It would be nice to compare and to keep in touch and share experience, giving updates. We also would like to bring it playable again.
I do not know how to organize this on cafe, it does not fit in this particular thread, as it is not a Fabricatore as the thread is named, but a 1776 Vinaccia.

Margriet

[etbarbaric]

Hi Marijan,

Welcome to the Cafe!

Thanks for posting photos of your instrument here. There is some (growing?) interest in the early instruments, stringing, and techniques, and I'm sure people will enjoy seeing this instrument. I tried to send you an e-mail over the weekend, but I don't know if you received it. You seem to have found the files on my 1793 Fabricatore, so that was the goal in any case. I certainly agree that yours is a perfectly legitimate and lovely Fabricatore.

Interestingly, the photos of your instrument have helped me to establish the likely builder of another 18th-century mandolin under my care. I had long strongly suspected Fabricatore, but the label on my instrument had been torn out. As it happens, the inlay around the soundhole of your instrument is identical to mine. I had seen that inlay pattern used on another Fabricatore instrument, but it is very nice to see so direct a match! So, thank you again for sharing.

As for restoration, having been through this process a couple of times, I would advise caution. As a violinist and a mandolinist, I can attest to the fact that mandolins are not violins. This seems obvious, of course, but there are many structural aspects of the violin family of instruments that make them ready to resist the forces we subject them to. Violins and their ilk also almost seem ready-made to be taken apart, adjusted, and put back together. Plucked instruments, in contrast, work differently... Mind you, I'm not saying it can't be done, much the contrary, only that in my view, it takes a very competent restorer ready to understand some new issues, and a good candidate instrument.

In particular, I would say that existing neck angle more than anything else should govern the choice of whether to attempt a restoration. These instruments were all built *very* lightly, with a design point around low-tension brass (and gut) strings. Unless they have sat quietly in a closet, most older mandolins were eventually subjected to later higher-tension steel strings... and that often caused changes to the neck. In many cases, the mandolin simply gave way in other areas, and that somewhat protected the neck as the instrument simply became a wall hanger.

As a violin maker, I'm sure you can appreciate the common historical practice of nailing the neck to the neck block of old violins. This is almost certainly the case of your Fabricatore. Trust me when I tell you that your nail will be a "clench" nail that is larger in the middle. They were put in red hot, and *not* designed to be removed. The nail will also be made from the strongest, most amazing steel you've ever encountered! In violins, there are often ways of resetting a neck without disturbing the nail... This becomes very complex with a fluted mandolin body made of many strips of wood. The neck reset of my Fabricatore was extremely difficult. We had to cut the nail, and it took days and days of constant (and delicate) work. In my view, this was the area where the biggest compromises had to be made.

As Alex says, we are all willing to help with what information we can provide.

Thank you again for sharing the photos.

Best,

Eric

[etbarbaric]

Relative to the instrument itself, I wanted to mention a couple of very direct
similarities to my instruments (beyond the obvious, size, proportions, soundhole
size/shape, scratch plate shape, etc.)

The carving on the end-clasp looks to me to have been done in a very similar
style to my 1793 instrument, perhaps by the same hand. Also, the lone
surviving black peg you have is virtually identical to the peg we used as a
pattern for the restoration of the 1793 instrument (where we had no
surviving original pegs). Note that this peg (boxwood in my case) came
from my other suspected Fabricatore instrument (the one with the identical
soundhole inlay mentioned in my previous post)!

All in all, nice tie-ins! It makes me feel very good that I selected an
appropriate peg to copy!

Best,

Eric

ps - I would, of course, recommend Larry Brown as a very
competent restorer. However, he is located in the U.S., and
I'm not sure how much restoration work he is taking on
these days.

[Margriet]

Unless they have sat quietly in a closet, most older mandolins were eventually subjected to later higher-tension steel strings... and that often caused changes to the neck.



As a violin maker, I'm sure you can appreciate the common historical practice of nailing the neck to the neck block of old violins. Trust me when I tell you that your nail will be a "clench" nail that is larger in the middle. They were put in red hot, and *not* designed to be removed. The nail will also be made from the strongest, most amazing steel you've ever encountered! In violins, there are often ways of resetting a neck without disturbing the nail... This becomes very complex with a fluted mandolin body made of many strips of wood. The neck reset of my Fabricatore was extremely difficult. We had to cut the nail, and it took days and days of constant (and delicate) work. In my view, this was the area where the biggest compromises had to be made.

As Alex says, we are all willing to help with what information we can provide.


Eric

My Vinaccia has some damage and old repair on the neck as well. Do you think it has happened because of having had too high tension strings ?
Yesterday I was at Alex with it and he said it is probably a good idea to make a X-ray, to see if there is a steel pin in.

I am chiming in this discussion, because there are similarities, despite my mandolin had another maker. Here is a photo. If you think it fits in the thread, I can post more. I found it at the classifieds, some weeks ago.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Margriet,

Contratulations on your Vinaccia!

It is difficult for me to say much from looking at the photos. I'm
sure Alex can advise you better since he is nearby and has
the opportunity to examine the instrument first hand. What
evidence of repair do you see, and where is it on the neck?

The marks on the body down by the body/neck join look
to me like marks left over from two body frets (aka table
frets) as they are at approximately the correct spacing.
The missing inlay on the lower part of the peg head could
have a number of explanations. That is, of course, a prime
area for breakage if a mandolin is dropped on its head under
tension... but I don't see any crack in your photos...

Basically, if you want to end up with a successful and playable
instrument, you need a decent neck angle so that you have
a workable action. You can do a couple of things to evaluate
neck angle and strength. I think I can see a surviving nut in
your photo, which is great. If so, fashion a small spacer to
act as a bridge (nothing fancy.. just something approximately the
right height). Stretch a string from your makeshift bridge
to the nut and try to measure the distance from the string
to the last fret. This is not an exact science... but lets just
say that if you have 1/2 inch under the string... you have a
problem.

Also (gently!) see if the neck moves relative to the body of
the instrument, or if it is still tight. Again, gently.

Best,

Eric

ps - Feel free to start another thread if you like... they're free! :-)

[etbarbaric]

Also, sighting down the neck from either end can be very revealing!

[Marijan]

Hi Eric, yes I did receive your first mail (a lengthy one as my posts here) and I answered you the same day, sending few more photos.

Thank you very much for pointing out the neck issue and warning me about that aspect of restoration. I thought, that some kind of iron pin had to be used as on old violins, but wasnt sure about that, or about the technique old makers used for making a connection.

Could you please clarify for me this sentence: "In particular, I would say that existing neck angle more than anything else should govern the choice of whether to attempt a restoration."
Does it mean, that it is common and necessary practice today, that the neck is reset (taken of and reseted) on every antique mandolin, as a precaution, because the modern strings will be in use? Most of pre 1800 violin "nail" neck set ups where redone and replaced with mortise neck/body joint.
Or do you mean, that the neck angle and joint has to be carefully inspected and checked out, to determine, if the reset of the neck is necessary.

In any case, caution is my middle name . That is why I am trying to learn as far as I can, before I take any decisions about what and to what point to do with it. I hope you wont mind if I ask a question or two off the forum to from time to time.

I`m glad my photos helped you out with your second Fabricatore. It would be nice to see few pictures of it, when you take some. Thanks again.

Margriet, your Vinnacia is a great pair to Fabricatore for this tread. I certainly don`t mind and would be rely glad to see few more pictures of your mandolin. It looks to be beautiful instrument. I`d like to have someone like Alex here in Slovenija too, so I can consult with him, like you can. Who is going to restore it?

Best,

Marijan

P.S. I just read your answer to Margriet and it answered the question partially. Thanks.

[Margriet]

thanks, Eric !

yes, Alex looked very well to the Vinaccia and it is rather healthy. I worry the most of the neck/head damage and I think the X-ray is a good idea. Besides this it is mostly decoration issues, making bridge and nut. There is still a nut, but a bit weared. It is amazing that a mandolin of almost 250 years old has survived, in this condition and I feel happy and respectful with it. The case is interesting as well!

I can open a new thread, but I think it is good to add here. The subject is the same, only the name of the thread differs. I will post more photos. Last post two the same (unexperienced).

[Margriet]

In any case, caution is my middle name . That is why I am trying to learn as far as I can, before I take any decisions about what and to what point to do with it. I hope you wont mind if I ask a question or two off the forum to from time to time.



I`d like to have someone like Alex here in Slovenija too, so I can consult with him, like you can. Who is going to restore it?

Marijan, I appreciate a lot your attitude regarding the mandolin.

Indeed, I am happy with Alex in the neighborhood. If there is anyone, who is, as a musician, deeply and thoroughly diving into the history of the mandolin, her family and the aspects of playing, it is Alex !

About restoration: we limite ourselves to do decoration things and setting up: making bridge, nut, cleaning, gluing cracks. Alex made contact with luthiers like Hendrik van den Broek -who in the past was luthier, like you, for bowed string instruments, but now a mandolin maker/restorer as well - and with Sebastian Nunez, luthier more specialized in ancient instruments, like lutes, baroque guitars, theorbes. I will consult people like them, if necessary and let them do the work.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Marijan,

I'll try to be more clear in my comments. I would _not_ say that a neck reset is
necessary on every old mandolin, only that the neck angle is something that
should be inspected carefully if you want to have a playable instrument at the
end of the process. Neck angle is absolutely key to playability, in other words.
Sometimes having a playable instrument is not a consideration of a restoration,
of course (for museums, etc.)

In general, I would say that neck resets on mandolins are difficult, particularly
if there is a great big tempered steel clench nail involved. Thus, I was suggesting
that neck angle be used as one of the biggest determining factors before attempting
a restoration to a playable instrument. Just know that if the neck angle needs to
be reset, it will be a big job if there is a nail present... not impossible... just a
significant undertaking that can force some compromise. Not every instrument
has a nail, but I would bet good money that your mandolin does, based on my
experience with Fabricatore.

Also, I want to make this point very clearly. If you are successful in the restoration,
under *no* circumstances would I fit modern high-tension strings! Modern high-tension
strings will put the instrument back into extreme danger, and "reinforcing" an old mandolin
to handle these strings would do more damage to the instrument than good... and still
probably not be successful. It is a period instrument and it deserves period-appropriate
strings in my opinion. I can strongly recommend the period-appropriate strings made by
Dan Larson for the Neapolitan mandolin. These are mostly brass strings with a gut top
course (described elsewhere on the Cafe). There are also folks in Europe who can provide
these strings as well. Beyond just being "strings", the right strings will give your instrument
a truly remarkable sound... completely unlike that of the modern mandolin. This is the whole
point for me.

I hope this is more clear. Let me know if not.

Best,

Eric

ps - I haven't seen your e-mail yet... Maybe it is hung up somewhere. I'll keep looking.

[etbarbaric]

I would second Margriets' advice recommending Hendrik van den Broek or
Sebastian Nuñez. Both are fine craftsmen.

Eric

[etbarbaric]

Hi Margriet,

Thanks for posting the clearer photographs. I can now easily see the crack in
the lower portion of the peghead. That would certainly explain the loss of ornament
in that area!

From the side-view, it looks as if the crack traveled lengthwise down the neck.
That could be a good thing as it allows substantially more gluing area than a
break that was straight across. That said, these kinds of breaks can come back
to haunt you, since you are basically depending on the tensile strength of
hide glue to hold against the tension of the strings.

Before even thinking of adding tension to this instrument, I would recommend
having the repair checked out thoroughly by a good luthier.

Best,

Eric

[etbarbaric]

ps - That case is wonderful!!!

[Marijan]

Thank you Eric, more than clear. Neck on this mandolin seams to be as straight as it can be. No movements on the joint. No visible damage on the filler that`s covering the joint. But this is just a quick inspection. So far looks OK.

It`s far from fitting the strings, but I expected that old time strings should be used. If for nothing else but for complete authenticity.

Thank you for photographs Margriet. Great instrument. I contacted Mrs. Van Den Broek, but didn't get any answer yet.

Marijan

[Margriet]

Marijan,
you cannot know, but mr. Van den Broek is a Mr.
Just have patience and if it takes too much time, give it another try. There is always lots to do. I tried to make an appointment as well, for the Vinaccia, so far without success.

Eric, I agree to having it checked by a good luthier to see if the joint can bear the tension. Before stringing, but also before starting the decoration repair. We will do the work under "supervision".

For the pleasure I post here a photo of the inside of the case. The mandolin fits exactly.

[Marijan]

Thanks Margriet, no hurry on this one.

May I ask two questions?

Upper frets on this mandolin are made out of ebony stripes. Probably substitute, since I think I can see some small holes where original frets entered the top. I`m just curious, where frets like these ever used during the building process?



Purfling on the mandolin is made out of combination of ivory and ebony as far as I can see and judge. Three or for stripes.
How far would you go, or one should go, when trying to maintain the authenticity of the original, through the restoring process. Ordinary wooden purfling, bone substitute, chopping old piano and it`s keys, modern material....? What level, regarding the choice of material, in particularly those not available or restricted in use, is acceptable on historic instrument.
I plan to keep all original ornamentation and just add missing parts and mastic.

Best,
Marijan