The Loar LM-700-VS Distressed by Big Joe

[John Gass]

Again, the idea behind this project was not to do something because it works financially. It was done because I wanted to do it. I like it. It's my mandolin. That's all that really matters in the end. Thanks though for your comments.

[Tom C]

I did not mean to flame and I would be proud of the mando too. When I first read the thread I was wondering if the distressing was done to the orig finish. Then Big Joe confirmed in his post in what I was thinking -removied all the finish and started over -doing it the right way. It's just a Big Job to do compared to doing it during the building process.

[John Gass]

No worries. I like being a guinea pig. Hope everybody has a great day.

[Markus]

It was done because I wanted to do it. I like it. It's my mandolin. That's all that really matters in the end.

Indeed.

Thanks for posting the pictures and your experience. As I'm unlikely to do this, yet interested in the process, it's great that you shared this information. Big Joe's comments are also incredibly valuable having right here in context too, it's good to know what exactly was done [and some of the complexities/reasoning involved].

I hope it's the mandolin you want it to be, and hope I get the chance to hear it myself some day.

[John Gass]

I could probably get some sound clips put together soon. Not that I can play worth a hoot though.

[Martin]

I just love hearing about these kind of projects, espescially Big Joes comments and experience. I've always thought that some things cried out to be changed, modified or worked on since I was a kid, starting with bikes, motorcycles and cars now I've turned my attention to instuments. Being the owner of a LM-600 I especially like this thread.
Thanks John for posting great pics

[John Gass]

You're very welcome! I'm a tinkering type of person too.

[John Kinn]

I could probably get some sound clips put together soon. Not that I can play worth a hoot though.

Sound clips will be much appreciated! It was a great looking mandolin from the get-go, and it looks even greater now. Congrats! Let's hear how it sounds.

[PJ Doland]

Has anybody tried to get one of these from Music Link in the white? Or, alternatively, does anyone know if they've considered doing a varnish version. How much could that possibly add to the price if the work is done overseas? $500?

[Big Joe]

We have been hoping to get one in the white to do a varnish finish. I am hoping to see that happen in the near future. Greg Rich is going to be with us at our booth at SPBGMA and I'm sure we will discuss this project again. John's mandolin was a very nice mandolin to begin with and it sounded very good before we did anything. After removing the original finish and the heavy undercoat we were able to refinish with a much thinner finish and the varnish certainly adds to the overall effect. I do like the color currently much better than original. The original color is fine, but we were able to do it a bit different. I realize that is personal, but that is my feeling.

It will be interesting to see how this mandolin matures. It certainly sounded great when it left the shop and John can certainly be proud of his mandolin. Even with the extra cost he has put into hardware and distressing he could not purchase a better mandolin for anywhere near the same money. The instrument itself is a very good one to begin with and the carving and materials are great. The price of these instruments allow one to invest some funds to do the work to make it what they want. For some that is a means to an end. It does not require several grand out front to get what you want, but you can invest a moderate amount at a time and have it brought to the level you would like. Again, for John, or others who may follow his lead, he has an incredible mandolin for much less than he could have purchased a comparable instrument.

We did our best to discourage John from entering this project. We tried to talk him out of it because our fear was that the cost of the job would never be able to be recovered should he ever sell it. That may well be true... or not... but John was certain what he wanted and was not discouraged no matter what we said. He was the perfect candidate for a job such as this. We were very comfortable that we were able to do the job right and were quite clear on what we wanted to do from the start of the project. We did communicate as needed during the process and each time it was a joy. John came to the shop from time to time and we always had a good time. I am sure he was getting anxious by the time the job completed, but he never showed impatience and was truly a gentleman to work with.

Thank you John for the opportunity to do this job. It was certainly an interesting and fun project and you do have a mandolin to be very proud of.

[John Gass]

Thank you for the kind words Joe! I am loving this mandolin more and more every day. I can't wait to get into a jam session to really put it to good use. I am very impressed with the color and style of it and I can say you really nailed the "Loar period" sunburst just about perfectly.

One great point you made is that the instrument was a very good one to begin with. The main this is that made me not concerned in the slightest is knowing upfront you and Josh's previous workmanship history and being able to see your catalog of jobs. Knowing that and of course your history with Gibson as well as Mr. Derrington solidified in my mind that you should be the one's to do the work. Plus the fact that it was being done to a mandolin with such a great price point to start with made it easier as well. At that price I could afford for it to somehow be "messed up" even though I knew it was in great hands.

Every morning since picking it up I am just in awe of seeing it on the stand in my living room. It truly looks like a piece of art that can be played.

[ShaneJ]

Very cool, if you ask me. I like it a lot. I recently bought a The Loar LM-220 on eBay with the intention of removing the candy-coated finish from it to be redone similar to this. I'll do it myself, and I'm sure Big Joe's work is way better than what mine will be. But I think it will be fun, and I hope to end up with a decent mandolin when I'm done. I won't have much money in it at all, that's for sure. So there's no huge risk.

[mandopaul]

Very interesting read. Big Joe, is the underlying sealer undercoat (you said it was thick) poly or nitro? I have read that some of these "Nitro" finishes are poly under a thin topcoat of nitro.

Can I ask how much does the process cost, or would it be not discussed here?
Also would like to know how much it would be to just take the finish off the back of the neck? I was thinking about sanding back of neck with 1500 grit and leaving it at that (not taking off entire finish) but not sure.

[Fstpicker]

My understanding (I'm a Loar LM-400VS owner) is that the 600, the 700, and the 400 were nitro-cellulose laquer coated according to their website.

Very interesting project to learn about and to see the final results. Love to hear soundclips also. Even better would be clips before and after the distressing work was done.

Jeff

[billkilpatrick]

was about to "86" this thread. "stressing" - and its presumptuous, wholly ersatz mo-jo - doesn't appeal to me much but a retro change in finish does. in terms of tone, what might one expect with an "out with the new/in with the old" refurbishment?

[Big Joe]

The finish under a lot of nitro lacquer is a poly sealer coat. Not all mind you, but on a good many. On the Loars there is a coat of poly sealer and then the color and clear lacquer on top of that. The main reason we had to strip John's mandolin prior to distressing is the finish on the Loar was not amenable to the distressing process and would leave a whitish color around the area that was worked on. It would not allow a natural distressed finish and does not work with the materials we use to distress. In addition, we chose to use a varnish on John's mandolin because we wanted to see how this model mandolin would work with a varnish finish. It was a lot of work but well worth the effort to say the least. John was not originally expecting the instrument to be redone in varnish, but he was aware it would be refinished. When we decided to do the varnish John was excited about that and was very willing to allow us to experiment with his mandolin.

The cost to do a distressing job like this would be dependent upon the instrument, the kind of finish it has and whether it can be reasonably distressed or does the instrument need to be refinished. The amount of distressing and other items would also affect final price. In the case of John's mandolin we reshaped the neck quite a bit as well. For jobs such as this we would need to do an instrument by instrument price. John's mandolin was not an inexpensive project, but I am not at liberty to discuss prices for a customer's job. I would not do that for John's mandolin, nor for anyone elses.

Mandopaul...we charge 100-150 to do a speed neck. We remove the existing finish, then do a french polish sealer. We can do a stain to add a bit of color to the neck or just leave it white. It will darken in time anyway, but I like putting a bit of stain on the neck personally. If you just sand the Loar it may not get you what you want, and you may have the whitish residue show that we discussed in the distressing project. If that occurs the only way to get rid of it is to sand the finish on that area completely off.

billkilpatrick... There is certainly a difference in tone from the before to the after. Part of that is due to the finish change. All things being equal a varnish finish will be different from a lacquer. It's not to say one is better than the other, just different. I love the varnish tone better but Roland White likes the lacquer tone better. Neither of us is right for anyone but ourselves. In addition, the finish we put on John's mandolin was much thinner than the original and there was no poly undercoat. Then add to that the distressing process and the affect that makes to tone and then the reshaping of the neck. That too affects tone. The end tone was quite different from the before. It was a GOOD sounding mandolin to begin with but it was a GREAT sounding mandolin after the process was complete.

Anytime you change the finish on a mandolin from one kind of finish to another it will alter the end tone. If you strip a poly finish and apply a nitro it will be different. If you apply a varnish it will be different. Even different varnishes will alter tone a bit. The skill of the person applying the finish and the way it is applied will also affect the end result. We did a lot of testing at Gibson during my years there and it was amazing how the different finishes affected the end result. We have refinished numerous instruments over the years and the most dramatic improvement is when we remove a poly finish and replace it with either nitro or varnish. The instrument does respond much better to vibration when refinished. Part of this is due to the different finish, and part to the fact most poly's are put on pretty heavy. Hope this helps answer your questions.

[Martin]

Just an FYI, when I sanded the neck om my LM 600 and a couple of other places on the body I didn't encounter any of the white sealer coat. I wonder if the sealer coat is just for certain models or just a change in the production process at some time?

[frankenstein]

For nitro I'd start with suntan lotion and perspiration.

[mandopaul]

Wonder why the Loars don't just use nitro instead of poly for sealer coat? Doesn't the poly sealer defeat the purpose of the nitro's ability to breathe and break in / develop tone over time easier?

Does Gibson's nitro finish have a poly sealer coat?

[Big Joe]

Many of the mandos use a poly sealer coat. In many cases it is pretty light and helps seal and level the wood for sanding and giving a better surface to apply the nitro. If you use nitro for the same job it can burn through a lot of nitro and is harder to get a build up enough to work on. Some do just nitro, but most factories use a poly sealer. If it is done properly it does not hurt anything. Even on the Loars it does not hurt the mandolin, but it is a bit thicker than I would prefer.

[billkilpatrick]

joe - i've heard about "insider dealing" - this is great! (mega thanks - for all that you know and for sharing it.)

[Cheryl Watson]

Very cool!

[CES]

John, I think it looks fantastic! Joe, you did what looks to be outstanding work!!

I don't think I'd do this to my Silverangel...I'm planning on distressing it naturally over a lot of years, hopefully...

That said, I'm thinking of going Marty Stuart (or, I guess, Johnny Cash) on my Kentucky...it was an ebay disaster (so I don't think I could unload it on anyone in good conscience) but got me through the first couple of years...I think it'd be a cool campfire mando, and even more so if "signed" by local musicians and friends. If nothing else it'll be a cool wall hanger...

John, I played a LM-700 a few weeks ago and was really impressed with it...it's really a professional level mandolin at a great price point...if the one I played were improved upon any at all, it'd really be a monster (it was pretty much there to begin with)...


Hope you continue to enjoy it!!!

[mtucker]

Many of the mandos use a poly sealer coat. In many cases it is pretty light and helps seal and level the wood for sanding and giving a better surface to apply the nitro. If you use nitro for the same job it can burn through a lot of nitro and is harder to get a build up enough to work on. Some do just nitro, but most factories use a poly sealer. If it is done properly it does not hurt anything. Even on the Loars it does not hurt the mandolin, but it is a bit thicker than I would prefer.

correct, if poly is shot right, it can go on very thin. my suhr and andersons are poly finished (epa stopped laquer in Cali, several years ago) and they don't have a plastic look like you see on some cheaper instruments ...i can't hear any noticeable difference from lacquer, but some swear poly is brighter and maybe thinner sounding. it's certainly easier to fix boo boo's in laquer or varnish but poly is way durable.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Interesting thread......great read