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Thread: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

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    Plank Spanker outdoors4me's Avatar
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    Default Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Hey folks,

    I think I had a light go on while playing with some folks at a bluegrass fest saturday. Most of the stuff they were playing was in G. Through noodling around, I found that starting a solo on D worked pretty well and allowed me to work up and then back down from there.

    D is 3 whole steps down from G - So does that mean in general that I could start a solo 3 steps down from whatever key I'm playing in? Example: If I'm playing in A, start in E ?

    I figure this might be ONE good place to start - I'm sure there are other good starting places, but I'm just trying to get some sort of baseline in my head that is musically sound.

    Thanks, Beck
    Last edited by outdoors4me; Jun-07-2010 at 10:17am. Reason: spelling error

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Looks like you are getting a handle on ths issue, Beck. I remember many years ago talking to John Moore (California...mandolin and guitar player). Someone asked the question about how to do a "break". His answer was to just start on the named note of the chord and end on the named note of the chord you end on and it won't much matter what you do in between. I don't know that I would agree totally with that, but it gives one a place to start. What you are describing is similar to the way they do the "Nashville Number System.
    Have a Great Day!
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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Tiny Moore had a similar take on it. Know the chords of the tune you're playing, start your solo on one of the key notes in that chord, end on one of the key notes. What you play in between is up to you, just play it with taste!

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    So if you're playing a break on a G song, start on a G, B or D. In A start on A, C# or E. and so on. If you can figure out which is the first melody note of the song's verse, nearly always one of the three notes in the root chord for that key, you should try to start on that. Try to pick the melody as much as you can. Learn some licks to play over the "holes" where there isn't much melody. Keep the chord structure in mind as you play. Develop ways of leading the ear from one chord to the other. Ultimately, listen to, slow down and transcribe as many breaks by great mandolinists as you can, and figure out what they do. Don't reinvent the wheel, but do be adventurous and add your own flavor.

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    Plank Spanker outdoors4me's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Ah...just figured out that's the FIVE chord of the key as well. Duh...

    Thanks guys!

    Beck

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Sausage guy said it best

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    If you look at some music , written out, some of them start with a partial measure
    , say, 2 or 3 quarter notes worth of a 4/4 piece,
    Kind of like starting a sentence with "let me say"..

    Those introductory note are leading into the One/tonic of the melody .. kind of like a running start ..
    resolving to the downbeat ..
    from above or below , in the key's Scale.
    writing about music
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    I brew beer. Lachlan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Not trying to be a jerk, but the dominant is 2 1/2 steps below the tonic, not three. I think you knew that, but others may have a hard time trying to figure out your neat teachnique of starting a break on the dominant. Keep pickin' along on those breaks!

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachlan View Post
    Not trying to be a jerk, but the dominant is 2 1/2 steps below the tonic, not three. I think you knew that, but others may have a hard time trying to figure out your neat teachnique of starting a break on the dominant. Keep pickin' along on those breaks!
    I think he just meant three steps of a major scale... I don't think many people think in whole-tone increments, although it would add a nice Debussy-esque flavor to many bluegrass breaks.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    I find that a three or four note lead in helps with the timing and also lets the other band members know when to come in with their strumming....Listen to most fiddle players and you hear them "bounce" the bow on the strings with a 3-4 note intro before the actual melody starts....I don`t think you can learn this by trying to learn a song by reading the music for it....Willie

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    Registered User Perry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by outdoors4me View Post
    So does that mean in general that I could start a solo 3 steps down from whatever key I'm playing in? Example: If I'm playing in A, start in E ?
    I don't think it's wise to pigeon hole in this manner but if you had to I think you are better off starting, and therefore emphasize, on a third or seventh rather then the fifth (D) like you mention. But again there are no hard and fast rules just guidelines.

    Consider the following analogy I read in the "Ramon Ricker Improvisation Series". Let's say you give each note "votes" based on it's value in improvising:

    I (root tonic) lots of votes if you are a bass player but only one or two for the improviser
    II (ninth) few notes...good for color but does not express the harmony
    III (third) many votes
    IV (fourth) no votes weakest note; needs to resolve
    V (fifth) some votes; not as colorful usually the first to be omitted in a chord voicing
    VI (sixth) some votes; colorful but does not express the harmony
    VII (seventh) many votes


    The third and seventh in G major would be B and F# respectively.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    It so depends on the tune's melody (the vocal line if the song has words) and the thing you are trying to do. For example, Larry Sparks on Tennessee 1949. When I kick this off, I copy (I think) David Harvey on the recorded version. The tune is in A Major. David starts on the F# on D string, with the open A string. He walks down to the E note on the D string (where the band comes in), then moves on to continue his intro. The little descending line sets the groove and mostly follows the vocal line.

    Or Red Rector on Darling Nellie off the Norman Blake and Red Rector County album (excellent, btw). Red's solo starts on the open D string, he ascends to the G note (fret 5 on D string) in his style, then plays the vocal melody, with flourishes.

    So, 2 examples: one starts on the 6, the other on the 5. One descends, the other ascends. Both very effective, and stylistically in line with the picker's sensibilities and the song's melody.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    I don't think it's wise to pigeon hole in this manner but if you had to I think you are better off starting, and therefore emphasize, on a third or seventh rather then the fifth (D) like you mention. But again there are no hard and fast rules just guidelines.

    Consider the following analogy I read in the "Ramon Ricker Improvisation Series". Let's say you give each note "votes" based on it's value in improvising:

    I (root tonic) lots of votes if you are a bass player but only one or two for the improviser
    II (ninth) few notes...good for color but does not express the harmony
    III (third) many votes
    IV (fourth) no votes weakest note; needs to resolve
    V (fifth) some votes; not as colorful usually the first to be omitted in a chord voicing
    VI (sixth) some votes; colorful but does not express the harmony
    VII (seventh) many votes


    The third and seventh in G major would be B and F# respectively.
    Very interesting.

    Thanks

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    Purveyor of Sunshine sgarrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    This stuff really makes my head hurt!! I know more fiddle tunes than I can remember. Everything I know about theory and scales has come from fiddle tunes. What I'm trying to focus on is working on my ear. I went to an old time jam this weekend and they play a tune 5-10x which gives you some time to get the melody in your head and figure it out. I'm getting to the point that I can get about half the tunes before they end.

    Taking a break on songs though.......something just ain't clicking! I'm hoping I can get a little help at the Symposium on this very issue. I'll be sure to report back what I learn and helps me.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Herbie Hancock famously says that Miles Davis told him "don't play the butter notes" when improvising. Miles was never clear about which notes they were, but Herbie took him to mean avoid the third and the 7th since they most explicitly define the harmony, and he developed his improvisation technique around that idea. He felt avoiding these obvious tones allowed the soul of the song to shine through more clearly.

    Probably all eyewash, but, you know, worth noting in this context.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Yep. Back to the fiddle or voice, you either have the singular melody, or one of the many harmonies.
    When you're shootin from the hip (improvising) it's good to know you have "a" target, and not nessesarily "the" target.
    But if you don't end up the break on the right note, you're busted.

    "Butter notes" that's funny. I think Bluegrass has Gravy notes.

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    Registered User Perry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by OldSausage View Post
    Herbie Hancock famously says that Miles Davis told him "don't play the butter notes" when improvising. Miles was never clear about which notes they were, but Herbie took him to mean avoid the third and the 7th since they most explicitly define the harmony, and he developed his improvisation technique around that idea. He felt avoiding these obvious tones allowed the soul of the song to shine through more clearly.

    Probably all eyewash, but, you know, worth noting in this context.
    Interesting Miles comment....I have not heard that one yet but don't doubt it for a minute....perhaps especially applicable to cats who can play the thirds and sevenths to begin with.

    Being able to pick out the thirds and sevenths in a chord progression along with other pleasing notes will make us sound like we're playing the changes rather then just running patterns over them. Especially cool for blues (and harmonically rich jazz). If you know the two note mandolin chord trick for the blues progression (widely available info) then you are playing the 3rd and 7ths of each chord....simply flesh those two notes out with some others and it sounds like you are playing the "changes"...so much better then running the same blues scale over each chord though that can be cool too sometimes.

    Sorry for the digression.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    It so depends on the tune's melody (the vocal line if the song has words) and the thing you are trying to do. For example, Larry Sparks on Tennessee 1949. When I kick this off, I copy (I think) David Harvey on the recorded version. The tune is in A Major. David starts on the F# on D string, with the open A string. He walks down to the E note on the D string (where the band comes in), then moves on to continue his intro. The little descending line sets the groove and mostly follows the vocal line.

    Or Red Rector on Darling Nellie off the Norman Blake and Red Rector County album (excellent, btw). Red's solo starts on the open D string, he ascends to the G note (fret 5 on D string) in his style, then plays the vocal melody, with flourishes.

    So, 2 examples: one starts on the 6, the other on the 5. One descends, the other ascends. Both very effective, and stylistically in line with the picker's sensibilities and the song's melody.
    ...don't know just what video you were watching, but two of the ones I watched had them in the key of (B), not (A) as you say ?

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by mando-tech View Post
    ...don't know just what video you were watching, but two of the ones I watched had them in the key of (B), not (A) as you say ?
    Ten year old discussion.


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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by mando-tech View Post
    ...don't know just what video you were watching, but two of the ones I watched had them in the key of (B), not (A) as you say ?
    You remind me of an old boss I had...

    Yes, old thread, but you're right (and wrong, as I wasn't referring to a video, but to the recorded version on Silver Reflections LP). And you're right in that they did this one in B chord. But, the idea still stands: Dave, in his style, starts on on G#-B doublestop and slides down to F#-B to start his solo. A good musician can transpose on the fly, ain't it so? haha

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    You remind me of an old boss I had...

    Yes, old thread, but you're right (and wrong, as I wasn't referring to a video, but to the recorded version on Silver Reflections LP). And you're right in that they did this one in B chord. But, the idea still stands: Dave, in his style, starts on on G#-B doublestop and slides down to F#-B to start his solo. A good musician can transpose on the fly, ain't it so? haha
    When I recorded it with Pete Gobel and Bill Emerson in 1985, Pete had me kick it off on the open A-string and take it into the 4...

    I think the most important thing is stick close enough to the melody so that people know what song you are playing regardless of what the "technically correct" note you should be playing.
    Last edited by ManjoMan; Jul-13-2018 at 12:15pm.
    ManjoMan

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Old threads are best.
    Last edited by Dacraw54; Jul-13-2018 at 2:00pm.

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    You can start anywhere, and you can play -any- note, passing, while soloing in any key—just make sure that the notes you land on for emphasis fit in the chord that is being played, and know where you’re going to end, AND END THERE. Might be the root note, the fifth, or the seventh if you’re going for a bluesy exit, but hopefully someone, whether singer or instrumentalist, is waiting to jump in for their turn.

    But what do I know?

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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacraw54 View Post
    Old threads are best.
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluegrass - A question for those who improvise

    And, just a thought, it helps to play the notes of the scale related to the key the song/tune is in, unless there are some clearly stated "accidentals" outside of that scale. If you throw a bunch of C#'s into a song that's in the key of G, you should have a reason to do so (like a "2" chord leading to the "5" chord, e.g.).

    This seems totally obvious, but I've just started teaching a beginner mandolin class at a local music school, and to beginners, scales and chords, and their interrelations, are a whole new and mysterious language. Those of us who've played this stuff so long we no longer have to think about consciously choosing scales and chords -- at least most of the time -- are sometimes reminded that not everyone has that history on which to draw.
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