I can sort of relate, but with vibrato. I hate when singers sound like someone is shaking their throat at the end of every line, or when an electric guitarist does spazzy convulsions on every held out note.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
I can sort of relate, but with vibrato. I hate when singers sound like someone is shaking their throat at the end of every line, or when an electric guitarist does spazzy convulsions on every held out note.
Soliver arm rested and Tone-Garded Northfield Model M with D’Addario NB 11.5-41, picked with a Wegen Bluegrass 1.4
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Super, thanks. I think you've answered my question.Originally Posted by JeffD
I think you are referring to "plain old" tremolo, on a guitar. Just very even very fast alternating picking. And while she is real good at it, I think its a pretty normal technique in that genre of guitar rock.
I think of it as mandolin envy
PS tried playing the Florentine Waltz mp3 in iTunes but it didn't work. Guess I need a good midi player?
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Pick slides are awful. That almost died out with the awful 80's rock guitar sounds.
Soliver arm rested and Tone-Garded Northfield Model M with D’Addario NB 11.5-41, picked with a Wegen Bluegrass 1.4
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Avoid Naples ...
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Yeah, Jimmy did a great job on that track. (Been years since I listened to that Classic JAG LP.) On that he's got that Curly Lambert (Stanley Bros.) slow tremolo, with a touch of Buzz Busby. Jimmy Gaudreau is one of the few players that will do (or can do) the full-blown Buzz buzz (though he's not doing it on this tune).
I'm not a big tremolo fan myself (in my own playing), usually preferring left hand vibrato ala electric guitar, and a lot of those other e.g. techniques that others have mention including the harmonic pick squeals, string scraping, etc. But depending on the tune, sometimes one of the varieties of tremolo is the most appropriate choice for the material.
- Curly Lambert is a good example of that older, slower tempo tremolo that's so effective on old country and mountain tunes.
- Busby takes things up to "eleven" (more like ""eighteen"!) and is in a category all be himself with that destructo-tornado havoc.
- Doyle Lawson has the precision to come off the tremolo right-on-time and without interruption on faster stuff and fiddle tunes. It's as much about his "stopping on a dime" that elevates him to the top rung.
- Grisman on the slow moody stuff ("Rain & Snow", "Her Name Is Written There") is at his best (imo). He's got a ton of volume dynamics as well a tone variation including that breathy-scratchy stuff. My suspicion is that he found that by going after the breathy sound of low volume sax on ballads (such a "Naima").
Here's Busby at his best. (Honky tonk if George Jones had hung out with Ralph Stanley) Be sure to check out "Rambler" BTW, it was Jimmy Gaudreau who made it a point to turn me onto Buzz (for his dublestop mania) way back in 1976; his folks happened to live 4 miles down the road from where I was living in my late grandmother's house in southern RI. His uncle ran the Shannock, RI post office and gave me the heads up when JG was gonna be in 'town'.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Per Jimmy, Classic JAG never made it to CD due to some issue with the record company (Wayne Busbice) at the time. Too bad, as it has some nice cuts on it - the title track (which, btw, I played for JAG one time at Merlefest. He was impressed, not so much with my playing, but with the fact that someone actually learned one of his tunes...haha), Adrienne's Reel, New Sweet Home, some pleasing vocal numbers + Wyatt Rice stepping out a bit more than he did at that time.
I dropped it down to the computer for ease of play and lick thievery...
further thoughts: that older, bygone era of tremolo - Frank W., Vernon Derrick, Dorsey Harvey, Buzz, Duffey, some others is hardly heard these days. Practiced at the time by the wilder/younger-than-Monroe cats, it was raw and intense. Listening to the Buzz/Leon Morris record, it harkens back to a style that was hot and cool, and seems to have fallen out of favor. Now, it's pretty and clean; I dig the down and dirty, meself.
Last edited by AlanN; Apr-23-2017 at 10:27am.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
I've never learned tremolo. I think I would be embarrassed to try it now. It would call too much attention to myself. Now I wonder if it calls too much attention to myself that I don't ever do it?
I never took lessons on mandolin. I learned from another player at the jam, just watching him. He never played any tremolo. I guess I either just let a long note go or I strum it like a guitar.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Tremolo was the technique that saved my mandolin playing. I had been struggling with being able to get any speed for a long time. Then, one day I noticed that when I played tremolo, I used a different right hand position than my regular playing. I began to wonder, if I can play tremolo which is just a lot of single notes played very quickly, why couldn't I use the tremolo technique slowed down slightly to play blazing speeds of regular picking. Turns out, I could. It took a while to perfect it, but now I don't struggle with fast material any more.
The technique I was using to play my tremolo was that I tilted my pick upwards slightly, rather than the square strike I had been using to play regular notes. By upwards, I mean the pick end closest to the fingerboard was raised at about a thirty degree angle. Also known as a left hand tilt or opposite of Thile's tilt. Combined with a pick that has a left hand speed bevel, the technique works very well for me. I have also strived to keep my thumb and forefinger from squirming around, and use only my wrist.
I just can't imagine mandolin playing without tremolo. Seems like you'd be missing a valuable tool in your picking toolbox.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
I had a similar experience. I could do the tremolo, (not sure how), but then I expanded it to do runs and arpeggios and stuff and wow! In fact the way I do Irish triples is to just go into a quick machine gun burst of tremolo and get out of it quickly. I have honed it down to three notes in a burst.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
I mentioned to my friends that one thing I don't know how to do, where to use, is tremolo. The reaction I got was "Oh god no, don't do tremelo!" I think they're okay with it in extreme moderation on waltzes but otherwise it seems universally hated. I play strictly old-time.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
My default is to tremolo everything a quarter note or longer. There are exceptions but that is my general practice.
That includes old time. I haven't gotten the hairy eyeball for it.
For example the B part of Greasy Coat has those two dramatic extended notes. Well of course I have to tremolo them.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
That's interesting, maybe a regional difference? Out here in the Pacific Northwest, I don't think tremolo is frowned on in local OldTime jams. What else are you gonna do on a slower tune like Ashokan Farewell, or a waltz?
Irish/Scottish trad is a different thing though, and I've already gotten into trouble here by saying I think it sounds out of place in that music. Just a personal preference, and I can't really articulate why it sounds good to me in OldTime and not in Irish trad. Maybe something to do with the usual mix of instruments... string band vs. more sustaining instruments, something like that.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Imagine a mandolin player from 100 to 150 years ago repeating to him/herself, over and over again: "I must not play tremolo … I must not play tremolo …"
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Well, Ashokan Farewell would also be frowned on in the circles I attend. Maybe this is California-style old-time.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
I don't consider it a tool, it's an essential part of playing the mandolin. I can't imagine NOT using tremolo.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
What do you think of using tremolo on slow airs. I have done that tastefully. (I think.)
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Again just a personal opinion, but I don't like it. It sounds like the music is suddenly shifting to Italian or Classical mode, and not distinctly Irish (or Scottish).
When Classical violinists, flute players, and vocalists start learning to play (or sing) Irish traditional music, they learn that the conventions are different. The violinist learns to shed heavy Classical hand vibrato (there are exceptions, but it's used sparingly when done at all). The flute player learns to stop using Classical tongue articulation and diaphragm vibrato in favor of a more pure and flowing melody line, which basically emulates the pipes. Singers in the Sean-nós style learn to use a pure, unwavering tone instead of Classical voice vibrato.
If all these other instrumentalists and singers learn to ditch some of the defining conventions of Euro-centric, Classical music when they learn to play Irish trad, then maybe we mandolin players should be doing it too.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Well thankfully, most of the fiddle tunes, Irish, Scottish, are mostly eighth notes or faster and quarter notes used rhythmically and not as an extend note, so it doesn't come up too often.
But something like Limericks Lament, I love doing tremolo on that. Or Archibald McDonald of Keppoch. Man without tremolo I don't know how I would play them.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Consider another aspect: on the other 'slow / fast' thread, we observed how much 'faster' we can play/attack on wind and bowed instruments (continuous). This provides more control over the shape and character of the note. Listen to the subtle modulations we can impart on our long tones - amounting to trem on mndln - on especially wind, and bowed strings. WRT to trem on mndln, I hear much less character/modulation/complexity of the note - which makes much of what I hear a a series of 16th, 32nd notes repeated in fast staccato, as opposed to the range of emotions imparted by the wind, and the bow, playing a single tone.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
I can understand that. My personal choice when playing solo at home, is just not to attempt the true slow airs like Pórt Na BPúcaí that are in rubato time, with long pauses between notes. I'll play the "airs" like Hector the Hero that are often played in steady 3/4 time, because there is enough sustain to carry the notes across the gap. I've heard Archibald MacDonald of Keppoch played both ways, either rubato (a great version on YouTube by Alasdair Fraser), or as a steady 3/4 tune at a slightly faster clip. Everyone's mileage will vary on how to handle these slower tunes.
In a pub session when someone starts a slow air, I just play the notes without tremolo. There are enough other sustaining instruments to carry the tune, so I don't really need to fill that space when everyone else is doing it.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Speaking as someone who is *not* Irish, but who has numbered such wonderful people as Irish fiddler Brendan Mulvihill as treasured friends, I often remember Brendan laughing about those who talk about what should and shouldn't be allowed in irish traditional music, especially those who are not actually Irish and didn't grow up in the tradition.Again just a personal opinion, but I don't like it. It sounds like the music is suddenly shifting to Italian or Classical mode, and not distinctly Irish (or Scottish).
When Classical violinists, flute players, and vocalists start learning to play (or sing) Irish traditional music, they learn that the conventions are different. The violinist learns to shed heavy Classical hand vibrato (there are exceptions, but it's used sparingly when done at all). The flute player learns to stop using Classical tongue articulation and diaphragm vibrato in favor of a more pure and flowing melody line, which basically emulates the pipes. Singers in the Sean-nós style learn to use a pure, unwavering tone instead of Classical voice vibrato.
If all these other instrumentalists and singers learn to ditch some of the defining conventions of Euro-centric, Classical music when they learn to play Irish trad, then maybe we mandolin players should be doing it too.
If one really wants to avoid introducing American, Italian or Greek notions into Irish traditional music, one should avoid introducing those instruments as well. Banjos, mandolins, bouzoukis and even accordions are newcomers to the tradition, as opposed to flutes, pipes, harps and fiddles.
Me? If Brendan can be agnostic about drawing strong lines, I can be as well. That keeps me consistent across the board.
----
Playing a funky oval-hole scroll-body mandolin, several mandolins retuned to CGDA, three CGDA-tuned Flatiron mandolas, two Flatiron mandolas tuned as octave mandolins,and a six-course 25.5" scale CGDAEB-tuned Ovation Mandophone.
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Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Nobody is drawing strong lines here. We're talking personal preference, that's all. Every time I bring up the fact that I don't like tremolo on slow Irish airs in this forum, I get accused of stating that as an absolute proscription of some sort. It's just personal opinion, I don't think it works very well. I pick up my OM with long sustain if I want to play a slower tune, or I pick up my flute. Personal choice, that's all.
And give us a break on "those who are not actually Irish and didn't grow up in the tradition", please.
If I thought I had to be born in Ireland to play this music, I wouldn't be playing it at all. The tunes are too good to ignore on that basis. I do have one Great-Grandmother from a transplanted Irish family in Appalachia, although the rest of my family is descended from sassenach Brits. And I hate Morris tunes, so I'm not gonna play that stuff. I'll play the music I like, whether I was born into the tradition or not.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
+1
Many Irish didn't grow up in the tradition and only learned about it by the advent of radio in the 50s. Many non-Irish people play this music for decades and may well be said to have grown into the tradition by now.
It's a Celtic thing by nature, and the Celts have never been nailed to one place.
It's also a thing of the soul, and souls don't wave nations' flags, but they are entitled to different taste - some draw lines, others don't, and yet others trip over them.
Anybody looking for strong lines in Irish music should consult Mr Seamus Tansey, a man with a strong Sligo tradition and a strong opinion about it.
For more strong opinions, you may refer to the movie The Boys and Girls from County Clare
Last edited by Bertram Henze; May-03-2017 at 1:51am.
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
Getting back to tremolo, in traditional or indeed any other kind of music.
I am thinking about how one might play tremolo in a way that did not evoke Italian music so strongly. Are their differences in how one does tremolo that we can use to make it fit better or more seamlessly in other kinds of music.
Is there an iconic "Italian expressiveness" that perhaps we can tone down when it is not called for? And is there a way we can do an effective tremolo that is expressive within the tradition we are playing.
Something I have not thought about enough it seems.
Re: I don't like the sound of tremolo.
We've been discussing this some on another thread, for I think it's a legitimate question - especially as we're seeing, not only mandolins, but increasing presence of other non-traditional instruments involved in ITM, for example. Something I mentioned was the tremolo technique in charango playing. For obvious reasons, chrng likely won't be an efficacious instrument in rendering ITM, but the technique of executing trem on the instrument, while still essentially the same mechanics, mitigates the sound of discrete-note staccato picking of mandolin tremolo. Succinctly, one can achieve a more expressive trem on chrng than on mandolin (imo). The technique involves attacking the string with fingernail, or fingertip, or both. I think a more effective trem - greater dynamics, modulation, nuance - can be achieved on metal-strung mandolin by applying similar approaches. Plectrum trem can also be 'softened' by varied attack of the plectrum. But I expect we'll see more creative approaches involving use of the hand, rather than plectrums, on all instruments in years to come. In harping, for example, technique is being extended to involve expanded use of the hand - flamenco-style techniques, etc. Naturally technical innovation disperses among all instruments.
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