whammy bar

[cammtb]

I posted this under General Mandolin discussion forum and it was suggested I ask this under the electric experts so here it is: My husband has just started playing mandolin and wants to know if there are any real tremelos or tremelo kits (whammy bar) for mandolin instead of playing tremelo style? He plays a lot of rock songs and would like to try playing them using the mandolin. Is he the only one who is looking for something like this, how have others solved this problem or should I tell him it's a mandolin not a guitar, leave it alone?

[mandroid]

Please avail yourself of the Archives, note the link in the black bar at the bottom of the page, right side..

and the white search entry box in the top header, also right side ..

Judge for yourselves, is the budget to custom modify guitar parts big enough to pay for the work ,

modifying these parts to suit building a mandolin around? Since mass produced parts won't be there.

... Others may know of builders to hire to do the work.

FWIW, smaller mini guitars may be useful and cheap, 5ths tunings are a bigger range
than guitar's 4hs, so re notching the bridge and using 5 strings of appropriate gage, works..

[Rodney Riley]

Don't know if this link will work. Or search youtube for "electric mandolin blues. Mahjun & Giroux". Mahjun does whammy sound without the whammy bar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoXfz...next=1&index=1

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Question:
Is your husband's mandolin electric? Does it have some kind of pick up in it? More importantly, is it a solid body instrument, like an electric guitar? If so, then all things are possible. It's just a matter of finding someone willing to find the hardware and do the work.

You and he may need to decide of the cost and effort of getting a whammy bar on his mandolin is greater or less than simply learning to run the pick back and forth quickly over the strings.

Another thought:
Whammy bars change the pitch of a note, while the technique of tremelo changes the volume (quickly from high to low and back). They're different beasts. So it's possible that what you end up with will not serve the purpose you're expecting.

A better option might be a tremelo unit for an electric guitar. You can get them either as a foot pedal (Boss makes a Flanger that does a nice tremelo) or as part of an amplifier. I think Fender has models with tremelo and Ampeg has made a couple that way too. This option would make a sound closer to standard mandolin tremelo technique.

Good luck!

Daniel

[mandroid]

TremOlo is a long note technique on an instrument that has little sustain, so instead of holding a whole note , player makes 8 eighths notes or 16 sixteenth notes ..hemi-demi-semi-quavers ..

and being of a short scale though likely less than a half step detuning .. pitch shift can be done by bending the neck a bit ,on these things too..

I had a vibro champ amp the knob changed the power rate of change thru one of the preamp tubes , so you could see it changing cycle length in brightness as a result.

foot switch would control an in out choice of that effect.

[rico mando]

Good luck with the whammy modification

[thistle3585]

Cammtb asked, "Is he the only one who is looking for something like this" No he isn't. There are three other people that are looking for the same thing. We wont start R&D until we have seven people interested.

On a serious note, several builders have knocked around this idea on the forums as well as privately and it simply comes down to the fact that there isn't a market for it. Its just not worth the time and financial investment to make it become a reality. There have been a few attempts made but nothing that can really be reproduced on an economical scale. The best solution I could offer is to suggest that he find a mandolin that has one on it or a mandolin with a B bender. Personally, I think the scale is too short to allow for a whammy bar. I believe it would detune too much. There are techniques such as bending strings above the nut or behind the bridge to get a similar affect.

[cammtb]

On a serious note, several builders have knocked around this idea on the forums as well as privately and it simply comes down to the fact that there isn't a market for it. Its just not worth the time and financial investment to make it become a reality. There have been a few attempts made but nothing that can really be reproduced on an economical scale.

From what I'm reading in the responses and also from what I've seen on previous discussions it's something people might enjoy provided it didn't destroy the mandolin sound (a good whammy bar should enhance sound not destroy) and also if it were cost efficient. Judging by some of the reactions it's as if it would cost thousands to make and therefore not worth the money; I agree but that makes me wonder then, if people were interested (again previous discussions have people saying 'wow does that have a whammy bar') so it sounds like some folks would enjoy it if it were affordable, what constitutes affordable? I've seen mandolins online from a couple hundred dollars to almost $20,000; what makes the one soooooo much more than the other, is it name, is it wood, is it sound? Personally if I were getting a mandolin for $20 g's then it better be unique and spectacular!

[thistle3585]

What is affordable to one person is outrageous to another. As has been mentioned, there are instruments out there with whammy bars and B benders on them but those musicians were willing to pay a fair chunk of change to have one custom built. I am guessing that a one off whammy setup would easily be several hundred dollars depending on the design. Also, just because there is interest in such an item doesn't mean it will result in sales even if its "affordable". I have spent considerable time, as have other members of this forum, working on designs for a whammy bar but there are way too many barriers to bring it to fruition and the biggest one isn't whether its a good idea but how the whammy bar functions. There are other issues about designing one that can be retroffitted to a number of different instruments. It isn't worth my time and effort. I'd rather spend that time on building instruments.

[mandroid]

there is a big difference , a Long discussion of what the hand made acoustic mandolin buyer gets from a highly reputable famous builder
and a mass produced product to meet a price point acoustic mandolin ..

One thing I have not heard is this an 8 string .. wanted with a vibrato bar , then the answer is >forget it .

a 5 single string modification of a short scale mini electric guitar is the path you should take, via guitar techs and guitar parts .. that is more practical..

and I'm wondering the Hubby is the player , why have we not heard from him ?

you have a secret birthday gift in mind?

it is the string pitch interval of the violin family GDAE/CGDA applied to the fretted fingerboard that electric single string instruments share with the paired strings of the mandolin..
in reality any interval of 5th is OK ..BbFCGD, AEBF# C# you just have to figure out what to call the fingered chord ..

[mandroid]

Oh, [aside]
.. and I thought when I saw an instructional video showing BB King's vibrato technique
[he does it with his left hand, string bending sideways ]
I thought 'Ah Ha it's getting that 2 pound gold pinky ring moving that does it !

violinists technique is rocking the fingertip on the string making the pitch go up and down a semitone.

so If the Gear shortcut doesn't work out , try a technique learning path ..

[cammtb]

[QUOTE=mandroid;795436]

and I'm wondering the Hubby is the player , why have we not heard from him ?

you have a secret birthday gift in mind?

QUOTE]

You're right on the b-day gift, hubby will be turning 50 this year and since he's been through so much this past year I want to get him something special. That's why I was trying to figure out the cost of having one made for him, that's why the curiousity of how others solved this situation and is it worth the effort or will it destroy the sound of the mandolin. He has an 8 string electric mandolin, if it costs hundreds to make and won't kill the sound I might spring for it, it's still a lot of money but he deserves it. Also another reason he hasn't posted here himself when he started talking to me about it is because he's not American. He learned English years ago at school but like so many of us that learned a language unless you use it all the time your knowledge tends to fade. Trying to decipher his English would drive everyone here nuts, no one wants to be subjected to that. He can speak it reasonably well but don't ask him to write something, that's out of his league.

[George R. Lane]

Look on the Bigsby site. They have a B5 Vibrato that might work, it is for a solid body. The shaft is set for 6 strings, maybe they can make an 8 string one. Couldn't hurt to ask.

[cammtb]

Hubby decided to go ahead and make it for himself, here's a quick youtube clip made with an el cheapo webcam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EaQna5wONg

I admit I'm surprised by the interest he's received including two mandolin makers, that was a amjor boost to hubby's ego :-)

[Joel Glassman]

It works surprisingly well.
What would long-term pressure on the
top do to the instrument? Maybe thats
why you don't see acoustic guitars with whammies.
I think the best use would be for psychedelic
trance music... :^)

[Mike Black]

Whenever I think of a Whammy Bar on a mandolin I think of this one.

[rico mando]

. i would be interested to hear a mando through this .

[delsbrother]

I use one of those, but more for the pitch-shifting than any real "trem" effect. I've heard the sound referred to as "stepping on a cat", and must admit that (misused) it can be damn annoying.

[Ed Goist]

Here's 15 minutes worth of demo video on the Digitech Whammy from Andy at Pro Guitar Shop.
I bet the "2 octave above" mode would attract dogs from miles around on an e-mando.

(WARNING: Both demo videos feature some Jack White licks)

[rico mando]

Ok maybe i don't want to hear a emando through this thing . the whammy part is at the end of the second video in case you do not want to hear all the other junk

[JeffD]

I wonder if there are any electric guitar players who sit around discussiing how to better emulate a mandolin? Oh.... never mind.

[delsbrother]

I don't know about guitar players.. But it seems like guitar designers can't stop thinking about it.

Back to the Digitech Whammy - personally, I feel the "crap" part on those vids are the only thing that's really worth using it for; the actual "dive bomb" stuff does not sound "natural" IMO and just sounds overprocessed. The other stuff also sounds overprocessed, but I guess when you're stepping on a cat analog vs. digital doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

[Ed Goist]

I completely agree that the Digitech Whammy sounds overprocessed. As the legendary Gearmandude says in his review; "What do people use these for?!"

Also, I am sure that there are many electric guitar players who sit around discussing how they might better emulate Jeff Bird's e-mando sound with Cowboy Junkies.

[delsbrother]

I'm sure most people who have them, like myself, got them to try and emulate Tom Morello's sounds in Rage Against the Machine. Then about five minutes after opening the box and plugging in, we all realized while we were not Tom Morello, we could make all kinds of other freaky sounds with it. Then, eventually, most got bored and put the pedal away. Unless, of course, you were a looper, in which case the pitch-shifting and harmonizing aspects are useful.

I guess my point about this thing is, even though it's called a Whammy pedal, people don't really use it for traditional trem effects (e.g. Rockabilly licks like the OP is interested in).

[rico mando]

I guess my point about this thing is, even though it's called a Whammy pedal, people don't really use it for traditional trem effects (e.g. Rockabilly licks like the OP is interested in).

yes that was my take from the video .but good to know before wasting my cash .