Radial Tonebone PZ?

[steve V. johnson]

oops, double post and I don't know how to delete thisn. Ack.
stv

[steve V. johnson]

Rob Gerety wrote, "I don't use it but I am going to follow this - my question about this unit is this: If you are using it to play two instruments (I play guitar and mandolin) are there two separate eq controls, one for each instrument? I don't want to have to readjust eq each time I switch from mandolin to guitar and back.

I'm on the verge of chucking all my pickups and related gizmos and switching to a decent mic on a stand - but if I could find one reasonably priced piece of equipment that would serve as a pre-amp, eq, and di and mute switch for my two instruments and accept a stomp box tuner I might have second thoughts. I do like the fact this unit appears to have adjustable input impedance - I am using a magnetic pick up for my guitar (Baggs M1) and a Schertler Dyn-G for my Mandolin."

I use a D-Tar Solstice for Santa Cruz OM PW guitar and Crump zouk, both with Pick-Up The World #27 soundboard transducer pickups mounted inside on the bridge plates. I like it. NFI, just FYI.

It does all the stuff that Rob mentions with the exception of the variable input impedance. And it will run on two 9v batteries, and comes with a wall wart for AC power. I've never tried it on batteries. It's not a stomp box, so I keep it on a stool so I can use
the mute button when I switch instruments and tune.

Here's the real info: www.d-tar.com/solstice.shtml

I'm sure there are weaknesses, but I don't play plugged in all that often, and then not very loudly, so I don't find all the corners of the thing.


Radial makes -great- stuff.

stv

[foldedpath]

The only thing that's kept me from getting a Radial PZ is the fact that it doesn't run on phantom power.

48v sounds like a lot of voltage, but it's just a low trickle of current. It's not enough to power something like the Tonebone PZ and similar gear. I think the IEC spec for phantom power is a maximum of 10 mA, and some older (or cheaper) mixers might not put out more than 2-4 mA. That's enough for the original application of head amps in condenser mics, or an active DI box like the ones Radial makes. The classic LR Baggs PADI even manages to squeeze in a little EQ and still run on phantom power, if the mixer is putting out the full spec for voltage and amps. But notice the new LR Baggs "Venue" DI/preamp needs battery power or an AC adapter. It can't run on phantom.

Moving up to AC power removes a bunch of design constraints, which is why the more full-featured gear like the Tonebone PZ, Solstice D-Tar, TC Electronic G-Natural, Pendulum SPS-1, and so on, all use AC power (Edit after seeing Steve's post -- or use hefty battery power like the D-Tar with a wall wart option).

Digital gear will probably change that eventually, but the way things are now, the rule seems to be that if small size and fast setup is the absolute priority, then go battery-powered (or phantom if you can get it). If you need a full set of features, and/or the best possible audio quality and quiet noise floor, then go with AC-powered gear.

[Tim Bowen]

It sure seems that there are an awful lot of folks trying to play two or more instruments in a live setting and yet the available equipment for that situation is always deficient in some respect.

Well, the reason I ask is because this gets right to the difficulties I am having - my approach now is to use a separate signal chain and channel on the mixer for each instrument. Not cheap. Not simple. Has me thinking that maybe a good external instrument mic on a stand might work better and make life easier.

Yeah. No easy fixes, that's for sure!

I've considered the Tonebone pre- that you mentioned. I'm sure it's a quality piece, Radial stuff always is. My fave DI for live work is the Radial J48; exceptional headroom and clarity. The reason why units like the PZ, and others such as Baggs PADI (which I own), don't work *for me* (live) is because the dialed EQ and other parameters can't be bypassed via a stomp switch for a reasonably neutral base tone/level; you're locked into the dialed settings unless you bend down and tweak, and considering how radically different various instruments can be, such is not always conducive to pacing within a live show, as in keeping things moving along with as little dead air as possible. The fewer instruments played, the less the considerations... the more instruments within your live arsenal, the larger the window for the proverbial monkey wrench in the gears.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat, and I've found no method other than trial and error! Separate signal chains and mixing, and/or mic'ing might be good fits for some folks' situations, but (other than mic's for vocals, harps, kazoos, etc.), not so much for me. I'm a DI/PA/auxiliary reference amp sort of guy, but then my duo typically works loud bars and clubs and plays a fairly eclectic mix of styles and material at a variety of volume levels. Every attempt I've made with dedicated signal routing, mixing, sub-mixing and whatnot has been more trouble than it was worth, or worse, a fiasco. But that's just me.

Currently, I carry seven different acoustic-electric and electric stringed instruments to my jobs - standard and high-string guitars, mandolin, five string banjo, two lap steels, electric sitar. I'm not saying this should be the case for you or anyone else - but the only thing that really works for me at this point is to have separate, discrete units in line for tuning, compression, light-moderate overdrive, high headroom booster with EQ, and DI, (as well as some stuff for ambience). I don't use everything for each instrument obviously, but I've learned (mostly at gigs, often initially with comical results) over time, how to mix and match for the different instruments.

Good luck with your quest!

[Tim Bowen]

48v sounds like a lot of voltage, but it's just a low trickle of current. It's not enough to power something like the Tonebone PZ and similar gear. I think the IEC spec for phantom power is a maximum of 10 mA, and some older (or cheaper) mixers might not put out more than 2-4 mA. That's enough for the original application of head amps in condenser mics, or an active DI box like the ones Radial makes. The classic LR Baggs PADI even manages to squeeze in a little EQ and still run on phantom power, if the mixer is putting out the full spec for voltage and amps. But notice the new LR Baggs "Venue" DI/preamp needs battery power or an AC adapter. It can't run on phantom.

Moving up to AC power removes a bunch of design constraints, which is why the more full-featured gear like the Tonebone PZ, Solstice D-Tar, TC Electronic G-Natural, Pendulum SPS-1, and so on, all use AC power (Edit after seeing Steve's post -- or use hefty battery power like the D-Tar with a wall wart option).

Digital gear will probably change that eventually, but the way things are now, the rule seems to be that if small size and fast setup is the absolute priority, then go battery-powered (or phantom if you can get it). If you need a full set of features, and/or the best possible audio quality and quiet noise floor, then go with AC-powered gear.

Good points.

Even with units that feature phantom power capability, one needs to look at the specs. For instance, as much as I love my Mackie 808S powered mixer, it's a bit anemic in this particular respect; it will not phantom power my Baggs PADI (battery only with this rig, unfortunately). However, my Radial J48 DI has internal rail voltage to deal with such, and can be phantom powered with the Mackie with no issues.

[mrmando]

It's a hen's tooth for sure, but I love my Rane MAP33.

[Rob Gerety]

You're right of course that every situation is different. My situation is that I am frustrated with all the difficulties associated with what should be an easy task - amplify an acoustic instrument so that it sounds like an acoustic instrument should sound. I continue to lean toward chucking all the gizmo's and using a decent mic on a stand. I think I am going to give it a try. I don't play out much and it could be the right thing for me in my particular situation - certainly not for everyone. I am a little worried about feedback. Only one way to find out. Just got to give it a whirl.

[foldedpath]

The reason why units like the PZ, and others such as Baggs PADI (which I own), don't work *for me* (live) is because the dialed EQ and other parameters can't be bypassed via a stomp switch for a reasonably neutral base tone/level; you're locked into the dialed settings unless you bend down and tweak, and considering how radically different various instruments can be, such is not always conducive to pacing within a live show, as in keeping things moving along with as little dead air as possible.

FWIW, the TC G-Natural will do that. Just set up a new user patch with the EQ flat and the effects off, and call that up with a stomp on the button when you need a zeroed-out base tone. The unit can't be tweaked as easily on-the-fly because it's digital, but it really is perfect for setting up different patches for different instruments ahead of time, and quickly recalling them when needed.

The boost level can be set at different amounts for different patches (instruments) too, which is often useful. I need more boost to get my acoustic guitar on top of the band mix than I do for mandolin, so I have a few more db of boost programmed for that patch. The overall sound is very quiet and clean, because it's just digital math inside the box, with none of the gain-staging and impedance matching issues of chaining different pedal boxes together.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it does takes time to experiment and set up patches in advance with a digital preamp pedal like this. And it might not have all the effects you'd want in one box. You'd still need something else for electric guitar distortion, and unfortunately it doesn't have a programmable effects loop.

For a multi-instrumentalist, there is still the problem of how to swap the input quickly and smoothly during a performance, but all these preamp/pedals will have that problem once you go beyond two instruments. I suppose it would be possible to set up a chain of multiple A/B switch boxes on a pedalboard with the G-Natural, if you could afford the space and keep track of everything. I'm aiming for the least amount of stuff on the floor that I can get away with, and the quickest possible setup and teardown at a gig. So I just swap the instrument (or mini mic) cable at the instrument side.

[foldedpath]

It's a hen's tooth for sure, but I love my Rane MAP33.

That is a cool unit. I wanted one desperately at one point, but didn't have the money at the time.

It didn't stay in production very long, did it? Or was it just under the radar for a long time? I guess this says something about the real market for complex gear aimed at acoustic musicians, especially the programmable variety. I think one reason the Pendulum SPS-1 has had such a long product life in spite of the high cost, is that it's easy to understand and quick to use. Just grab a knob and twist. I have a feeling the G-Natural pedal won't have a very long lifespan either.

The gear manufacturers are probably avoiding going too far in that direction because laptop (or "Pad") computer rigs will eventually fill this market space, although the reliability isn't there yet for me personally. I like dedicated hardware for gigs.

[Rob Gerety]

I like dedicated hardware for gigs.

I agree. I have to use a laptop computer for presentations now and again - important ones with lots of money at stake - and it scares me to death every time.

[gw16]

As you can control the separate channels gain independantly, the only real issue is the eq. I personally set the eq relatively flat and as the PRZ is a really transparent pre, it just let's the instruments sound like they ought to. Maybe radial will build one with the dual graph sometime soon (let's hope) but in the meantime there's lots of simple ways around this but I don't think it's that neccessary to be honest. If you've got an instrument that might be particularly quirky, the easy out would be to buy a stomp box eq pedal and run the offender into that, then into the in on the pre. More gear to purchase, lug around, wire up, set up, and then have it screw up! The D-tar always looked interesting but I really like floor units. Someday someone will fulfill all our desires and make the perfect unit and then sell it to us for a hundred bucks...lol. Interesting thread with lots of great ideas!

[Rob Gerety]

I have a magnetic sound hole pick up now and I have used other flavors of pick ups on acoustic guitars and they all have required significant cuts in the mids to sound decent. Right now it seems the most practical thing is to have a separate signal chain for each instrument. The Baggs Para DI does a real good job for my guitar. The Schertler Pre does a decent job with my mandolin. For me its either that or a mic on a stand.

[Ian Rossiter]

I did my first show with the Radial last night.
Well...I'm done shopping around for an acoustic rig now, I love this little box!!!
A quick glance through the manual, hook it up, and play. It comes with it's own 15v adapter ( the only real drag about this unit) and a straighforward manual. The PZ seems to be built solid ( Heavy is good, heavy is reliable...if it dosen't work you can throw it at him.." -Boris the Blade. lol) hefty, and the knobs /switches feel sturdy. Within a minute or two I had my Mando tone dialed in,Boost level more or less set, and ready to play. I was playing with a 6 piece country band last night (Drums,Bass, Lead,Acoustic/Fiddle,Steel,and myself on Lead Guitar & Mandolin.) with iffy monitors in an arena setting, ( Small local arena btw,).
I had the Mandolin plugged into Input 2 ( due to pedalboard space/cable ends) with the buffer engaged. I came out of the Post EQ XLR output and into the board.
The EQ section allowed me to dial in a very nice, almost woody tone. The Notch and Frequency pots nixed any runaway frequencies, with the Notch Q switch set to the Norm position. Very useable and intuative actually, looking at the unit I figured it'd be more of a steep learning curve. Oh, and it's dead quiet too.
The Boost function is a nice "set and forget till ya' need it" feature; one knob, one footswitch....off you go!!! (...till somebody cranks their amp mid set that is, but there was still enough boost on tap with it set at about 1:00)
The drag about this unit (for me) is the 15 volt power requirement. I was hoping to power the PZ with one of the plugs on my Visual Sound daisy chain power cable/ 1 Spot adapter. However, the 1 Spot didn't work,so I used the supplied 15V adapter. Not a deal killer, but the Neon Pink cable seems outta place,and a bit distracting when you look down,truth be told.
I'm really looking forward to using it on a gig where I'm switching off diffrent instruments. I'm wondering how much of a compromise will have to be made with only 1 eq, but mabey it'll be fine.
So far, it's a keeper.
Coincidentally, the band we were opening for ( Foxwothy, out or Regina,Saskatchewan btw) thier guitar player had the PZ-Pre on HIS board!!! He uses his primarily for Acoustic Guitar, but he absolutely loves it.

[gw16]

Glad it worked out for you Ian! As I said, it's really a killer pre. Enjoy it.

[mandowilli]

Bringing this thread back to post about a problem that I have noticed with my Tonebone PreZ.

I use channel one for a mandolin and channel two for dobro and noticed that when switched to one of the channels, the other channel still outputs to the tuner out. So, you have two signals going to the tuner out at all times, and in a slightly noisy situation, you cannot get a usable signal to your tuner from the instrument you are trying to tune. The dobro in particular picks up much room noise by virtue of its design. In order to remove an instrument from the tuner circuit, you must do it at the Tonebone because just pulling the plug from the instrument leaves the 1/4 termination in the channel and puts noise on it.

I contacted Radial about this issue to see if there is a work around and they said no, it is just designed that way.

Ugh!

[MandoJason]

Anybody using one or try it out? I'd really like a two channel set-up like this for my OM and mando and I really need a preamp for the pick-ups I'm running. Feedback please, the good kind not the ringing type

I also play through a radial tone bone and occassionally use both channels. Though you do not have 2 seperate EQ controls (for each channel) there are simple ways around this issue w/ these. Really at sound check you can use the board's EQ and as folks mention in this thread, the ToneBone is a great unit and consistent. Alot of times for the mandolin all I need to do is dial back the highs and its ready to go. You can also choose to go into the board pre or post EQ which again can take away the on-stage fidgeting of the EQ controls and leave it up to the sound guy (if you so dare!).

all in all I recommend the tonebone and its a little easier/less techy than say the fishman aurora....

[pops1]

I have a magnetic sound hole pick up now and I have used other flavors of pick ups on acoustic guitars and they all have required significant cuts in the mids to sound decent. Right now it seems the most practical thing is to have a separate signal chain for each instrument. The Baggs Para DI does a real good job for my guitar. The Schertler Pre does a decent job with my mandolin. For me its either that or a mic on a stand.

Rob, which magnetic pickup are you using, most need electric strings or I like GHS white bronze, but they sound quite good going straight into the P,A. so you have two channels on the board, but only one preamp.

[Andrew Faltesek]

I've been using the Radial PZ-PRE for a while now and it's fantastic. I installed a K&K Twin Internal to my mando, and amplify with Fishman Loudbox Performer. This gives me switching between mando and 12-string guitar on one channel, and 6-string or mic for harmonica/vocals on the other.

Between the PZ-PRE and the Loudbox you can dial out any feedback and shape the tone very well. The Loudbox Performer is 3-way speakers, between it and the PZ the sound is so good and transparent vs going through my tube amp that I had to improve my playing ability...nowhere to hide!

[mandowilli]

Andrew,
I am using the Loudbox Artist amp and love the control and sound that it gives with the tonebone. I never have been a fan of hearing reverb on the mandolin but with the Fishman amp I can set it low enough that it sweetens the tone without actually being able to tell that any reverb is on there at all.