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Thread: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

  1. #51
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Just a few things, I don't care how anybody tunes, and it's better to read more and post less if you're easily offended by people that don't agree with you. It's also good to take a look at the posting guidelines. We take them seriously.

  2. #52

    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    I will attempt to answer some of the issues that have been brought up here:

    1. Regarding string tensions:

    The ADGC tuning keeps the strings close to where they would be in standard tuning. In my opinion, tightening up from G to A on the fourth string gets rid of the flabbiness inherent in the low string (you either know what I am talking about here or you don't, but let's not get into a huge debate about whether the low string tends to sound flabby). It sounds better tuned to A, in my opinion. Not flabby at all.

    2. Regarding making sense of the tuning from a guitarist's/bassist's point of view:

    a) If you have ever played 6 string bass, what you have is the top four strings of a conventionally tuned 6 string bass. Easy.

    b) If you play guitar, it is a little tougher: what you have is the bottom four strings of the guitar capoed at the fifth fret. So when you play an Em chord, it is an Am chord. A G chord is a C chord, etc. It took me a few weeks to get that straight but i have it down now.

    3. Regarding Making Music:

    In terms of what you can play, fourths tuning opens up the instrument to new things. I like lots of close harmonies and banjo type rolls, and I could not do them in standard tuning (I did try this and found that this tuning limited what I could play because the string intervals are too wide). It does not sound like a guitar or a 12 string capoed. I sounds just like a mandolin. If the riffs are different than the conventional mandolin riffs, well, I don't think any one cares...and I don't hear any of those traditional mandolin riffs in my head anyway, so that is not what I am trying to produce.

    4. Regarding Naysayers:

    You don't know until you try. Take your extra mandolin and tune it up this way and try it for a week and then post your comments. Don't tell me it doesn't work or doesn't sound good or is unmusical or sounds like a guitar or is cheating until you try it.

    5. The bottom line:

    My ADGC tuning allows the music I hear in my head to come out on the mandolin. I control the instrument not the other way around.

  3. #53
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    I don't know about any flabbiness in the G string with GHS Silk and Bronze .040 G strings. The real problem is the flabbiness of the C and G strings when they are supposed to be E and A, plus the fact that it's the bottom four strings of a guitar capoed at 5 (actually 17.) Who plays everything on the bottom four strings? A D F# B makes a ton more sense to me but only if I really didn't feel like learning how to play the mandolin. String tension is about 12 total pounds less, but most of it is in the two highest strings. They are pretty slack and sound very weak, to my ears. You like it? Play it that way. I'm done.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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  4. #54

    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Heck, I bought a mandolin because it's tuned in fifths. Can't bow a fiddle worth a lick so I took up guitar but every so often I gotta play on an instrument where the notes are right where I want them to be!

  5. #55

    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Jim,

    I have medium gauge strings on, and no slackness on the high strings in my tuning...nice full tone. I suppose if you are using really light gauge strings then tuning down might be an issue, but it has not been my experience.

    (Slackness of the G string is something I have noticed in music stores...might be due to cheap/dead strings or low tuning the mandolin?)

    Regarding technique: on the (electric) guitar, you can bend strings and sustain and make it sing. But you don't usually bend the lower strings as much on a guitar. Because you can't musically bend double course strings, it is better to orgainize the alternative tuned mandolin as if it were the lower strings of the guitar so you don't find yourself trying to do all those Chuck Berry licks that involve bends that don't work on mandolin.

    Again, try it. You seem really stuck on saying that ADGC tuning doesn't work...or doesn't make sense, etc. Experiment first...then draw conclusions.

    (Or just decide it is not something you are interested in and move on.)
    Last edited by axeman2000x; Sep-02-2010 at 3:39pm.

  6. #56
    Registered User i-vibe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    slack in string?....easy enough remedy....use a thicker gauge string.

    just like using 5ths tuning on a bass.....

    oh my gawd, the E string is too flabby when tuned down to a low C

    that's why they make different gauge strings....put a .125 -.130 on there and pooof... NO flab.
    just groove, baby!


    I still need your string labels!

  7. #57
    Registered User i-vibe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    but every so often I gotta play on an instrument where the notes are right where I want them to be!

    which brings us full circle back to these guys that wanna use their alternate tunings. the notes are right where they want 'em to be!
    just groove, baby!


    I still need your string labels!

  8. #58
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    GHS Silk & Bronze are .011, .015, .026 and .040 - IOW, medium. A tuned to G and E tuned to C = flabby. Weak tone. I did it. I'm not just an automatic naysayer, I tried it. Sounds Crummy to my ears. The end. Not stuck, it just doesn't make sense to me. You like it? Play it. Now I'm really done.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

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  9. #59
    Registered User i-vibe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    right gauge strings...must use right gauge strings.....must use......
    just groove, baby!


    I still need your string labels!

  10. #60

    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    I should think a plain steel .011 string should ring loud and true even tuned down to C. But if you want to maintain something like the 18 lbs of string tension that you have with an .011 steel string tuned to E, then you would have to go with a heavier gauge. In my case, I don't notice any slackness with .011's--I am guessing I still have at least 12-14 lbs on the E string even with it tuned down to C. Slightly less tension means reduced pressure on your instrument and less strain on your fingers, which I view as good things.

    Like i-vibe implies above, at worst this is a minor tweaking issue, not an insurmountable flaw.

  11. #61
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Sure you can do it. But you would be avoiding one of the big advatages the manolin has, which is the amount of notes you can reach with one hand. With the frets close together it just makes sense to tune the strings farther apart.

    It would be like rigging a fly rod with a quarter ounce jig. Sure you could do it, but you avoid the advantages of the fly rod.


    Also, if you tune the mandolin like something else you will tend to see it like a small version of something else. You will tend to play it like a small version of something else. You won't be playing the mandolin, you will be playing something else on the mandolin. You might miss the possibilities of the mandolin itself.

    All that being said, it will probably sound fine.
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  12. #62

    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Or you might be opening up the mandolin to new possibilities, and perhaps even bringing it to a larger audience? From what I gather here (from some of the posts), the mandolin has a sort of identity crisis if the tuning is altered. If you use a different tuning on guitar it is still a guitar. For example, Keith Richards has been played a five string G-tuned guitar since the early 70s. It is part of his distinctive signature guitar sound.

    Does this phenomenon speak to something about the mandolin community's self doubt and thus it's desire to place the mandolin in a specific musical niche that is distinct from other plucked string instruments such as the uke, the banjo or the guitar?

    Well, don't sell this instrument short. It's double course strings and the distinctive bright percussive tone give the mandolin a clear identity in my view, not the tuning...which is only something the player (and perhaps the rare expert listener) would be aware of.

    Anyway, I hope that my posts will help the OP or anyone like him get and keep the gig. There are tons of guitar players and very few mandolinists, so there are opportunties for gigs to help liven up acoustic acts, etc. If you can wail on the guitar or bass, with a few weeks of intense practice you can wail on the mandolin too...and it won't sound like a guitar no matter what you play.

  13. #63
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Take some time to visit the Posting Guidelines, you're getting really close to trolling and we don't do that here.

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  14. #64
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    How many Violins are tuned in 4ths? its the other cousin of the mandolin..
    where the tuning intervals came from..

    Violins , Violas and Cellos are all 5ths ...
    Im going to go pour a drink from a 5th right now
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  15. #65
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Axeman, do you have any recordings/youtube vids featuring this tuning?

  16. #66

    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    I will try to record something in the near future.

  17. #67
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Quote Originally Posted by axeman2000x View Post

    Does this phenomenon speak to something about the mandolin community's self doubt and thus it's desire to place the mandolin in a specific musical niche that is distinct from other plucked string instruments such as the uke, the banjo or the guitar?

    .
    Not in the slightest.

    I think there is a huge difference between investigating alternate tunings for their potential (I have a mandolin I keep in calico tuning), and tuning an instrument the way your previous instrument was tuned because thats what you are comfortable with.

    The first is seeking new frontiers and musical growth. Making the mandolin new again. The other is mitigating the uncertainty of the new instrument by seeking comfort with the familiar.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with either approach mind you, I just think its better not to confuse them.
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  18. #68
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Not in the slightest.

    I think there is a huge difference between investigating alternate tunings for their potential (I have a mandolin I keep in calico tuning), and tuning an instrument the way your previous instrument was tuned because thats what you are comfortable with.

    The first is seeking new frontiers and musical growth. Making the mandolin new again. The other is mitigating the uncertainty of the new instrument by seeking comfort with the familiar.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with either approach mind you, I just think its better not to confuse them.
    Agree 100%
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

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  19. #69

    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Not in the slightest.

    I think there is a huge difference between investigating alternate tunings for their potential (I have a mandolin I keep in calico tuning), and tuning an instrument the way your previous instrument was tuned because thats what you are comfortable with.

    The first is seeking new frontiers and musical growth. Making the mandolin new again. The other is mitigating the uncertainty of the new instrument by seeking comfort with the familiar.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with either approach mind you, I just think its better not to confuse them.
    So the real issue that is sticking in the craw of some of you is that you think I am avoiding new frontiers and musical growth? I don't agree with that assessment. It is about making the instrument play what I want it to play, and because of the big intervals in standard tuning, you simply can't do lots of close harmonies (Edit: "double stops"), close arpeggios, etc. And I still had to work hard finding all the new chord forms on my own, improving my right hand technique, getting used to the small fretboard, training myself not to try to do bends, palm muting and other guitar specific skills that don't really work on mandolin. While it is tuned in fourths, the ADGC tuning is not a direct match to a guitar or bass. (I discuss all this above).

    The bottom line: I don't want to be limited by the instrument so I devised a way to make the instrument play what I want it to and yet still sound like a mandolin. I suspect that the large intervals in standard tuning lulls the typical player into a "traditional box" that is not in touch with the kind of music an American pub audience wants to hear all night. My acoustic group plays everything from old timey stuff to Neil Young to Rolling Stones and CCR and even LaGrange by ZZ Top. I am not saying that a traditional style player could not do a good job covering this range...but I think the tuning issue stacks the cards against you.
    Last edited by axeman2000x; Sep-03-2010 at 12:51pm.

  20. #70
    Registered User Dave Wrede's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Deep breath everybody.
    No one has said anyone has to play mandolin in "traditional" tuning.
    i also come from a guitar background and know quite a few different tunings for guitar that make some tunes either more easily playable or possible in the first place. Different tunings actually make the guitar a different instrument from my perspective.
    After picking up mandolin (and a little bit of initial confusion) i have no problems going back and forth. Of course i'm not a gigging musician either. Do what works for You and serves the music, that's the bottom line.
    Personally i haven't exhausted the possibilities of "traditional" tuning and find that, for me, i can more easily find melodies and harmonies without over thinking. (Not that i'm strong in that department either!)
    Do what's best for the music and, as time allows, try out "traditional" tuning to see if it makes more sense. If it doesn't, no harm done.

    And let us know how Your mandolin journey goes. As You can see, we're all interested.

    Dave

  21. #71

    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    I have nothing to add to the tuning debate, but here's a chord generator that should work regardless of how your mandolin is strung:

    http://www.mandochords.com/

  22. #72
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    Quote Originally Posted by axeman2000x View Post
    So the real issue that is sticking in the craw of some of you is that you think I am avoiding new frontiers and musical growth? I don't agree with that assessment. It is about making the instrument play what I want it to play, and because of the big intervals in standard tuning, you simply can't do lots of close harmonies (Edit: "double stops"), close arpeggios, etc. .
    Well I would of course take issue with what close harmonies and close arpeggios one can't do on the mandolin in standard tuning. Mandolin players have been doing them for eons, but perhaps not fingered the way you intend.

    More to the point, if it is about making the mandolin play what you want it to play, as you say, then I am wrong in my comment. Because I have been trying to do the very same thing most of my adult life.

    I was confused by your statement earlier that you did it "to sound like a mandolin and still be able to step in and start gigging right away." My apologies if I read too much into it.
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  23. #73
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    If you got the gig , play the thing, tuned however you choose , and they still come across with cash,
    then it's all good.

    Whatever floats your Boat ..
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  24. #74
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    I suspect that the large intervals in standard tuning lulls the typical player into a "traditional box" that is not in touch with the kind of music an American pub audience wants to hear all night. My acoustic group plays everything from old timey stuff to Neil Young to Rolling Stones and CCR and even LaGrange by ZZ Top. I am not saying that a traditional style player could not do a good job covering this range...but I think the tuning issue stacks the cards against you.
    Yeah. That darn Grisman. Can't play a bleedin' thing people want to hear. Neither can Thile, Marshall (either one) or even our own Jim Richter. He has a heckuva time getting his standard tuned mandolins to sound good doing blues and rock. Can't be done.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

  25. #75
    Registered User i-vibe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stringing a Mandolin in Fourths

    ok, this is getting to be much like a conversation between two folks w opposing religious or political views.....

    no matter how much they go round and round they're never gonna change the other's viewpoint. dig?

    seems like we got more important things to talk about...like which pick we all prefer.
    just groove, baby!


    I still need your string labels!

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