planting, brushing, free hand, bridge rest :

[Ken_P]

I don't think you can rest your entire argument by citing one example, especially if that example happens to be one of the most exceptional mandolin players working today. I could just as easily cite Sam Bush as "the exception that proves the rule". Sam is a unique player, and as amazing as he may be, trying to adopt his specific techniques would probably hinder the development of a young player.

This is the same argument that you hear in flatpicking circles regarding Doc Watson. You'll most often hear that while he's an amazing picker, you wouldn't want a beginner trying to copy his technique. He, like Sam, is the rare player who can overcome the obstacles posed by less than optimal technique to become a great player. They're exceptional anyway, and would probably thrive no matter how they approached the instrument. For your average player, poor technique will eventually become a limiting factor in their development, and can (and should) be easily avoided.

[300win]

No offence to anyone hear but I've come to the conclusion that the opinions here is way too complicated for me to understand. I'll shut-up now.

[CES]

win, you're wrong.



Just kidding, man. The reasons this debate continues to circulate (other than new members who don't know how to find the search function and innocently ask), in my opinion, are that there is no "right" answer, and we all (or most of us, anyway) really do care about this stuff and want to do it correctly.

I started out picking guitar and banjo, and thus started mando with a pinky brush (though not really a post). After reading about a million of these threads (overstatement, of course), I determined that I may be hindering myself. I switched to the curled hand/gentle bridge brush technique (forget going totally free handed, as I need the tactile reference). It's taken me quite a while to make the change, and I still sometimes catch myself pinky brushing, though it's rare. Now I have the problem of wanting to relearn my guitar flatpicking technique.

I'm not sure that the change helped my tone. I do feel as if I have more range of motion, but not a ton more, as I still use behind the bridge as a reference point. The "power grip" as Compton describes does give me more volume and pick control, though I've discovered you can grip it that way and still post the pinky. I do think, finally, that I'm getting back up to speed, and I think I may eventually be faster with the new approach. I think I like the new way better, but the jury is still out.

Two important points...I'm a beginner and had only been playing guitar for 3 or 4 years before I picked up the mando (as opposed to 40), so while the change was tedious and not easy, it wasn't impossible. I also have no talent, and thus fall into the category of one who may be hindered by poor technique, and certainly one no one would want to emulate. The change took literally weeks for me to feel comfortable, and if I were a working musician I would have never had the luxury of time and patience to make it work.

I think I'm doing it the more correct way now, but I don't think your way is wrong. If the only way I could play well enough to do the gigs you do and play with the folks you've played with was to switch back, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And, heck, if you're rippin' it up your way, don't worry about it!!!!

[ralph johansson]

I don't think you can rest your entire argument by citing one example, especially if that example happens to be one of the most exceptional mandolin players working today. I could just as easily cite Sam Bush as "the exception that proves the rule". Sam is a unique player, and as amazing as he may be, trying to adopt his specific techniques would probably hinder the development of a young player.

This is the same argument that you hear in flatpicking circles regarding Doc Watson. You'll most often hear that while he's an amazing picker, you wouldn't want a beginner trying to copy his technique. He, like Sam, is the rare player who can overcome the obstacles posed by less than optimal technique to become a great player. They're exceptional anyway, and would probably thrive no matter how they approached the instrument. For your average player, poor technique will eventually become a limiting factor in their development, and can (and should) be easily avoided.

I believe what happened in Bush's case is that his wrist stiffened as a result of the accident. Therefore you see a lot of forearm movement, which to me appears to be quite exhausting. The thing to remember is of course that Bush already knew how to play the mandolin - he had the music in him and could adjust his technique to his physical issues, because his goals were so clear. That is not the case with a beginner.
I think almost any newbie would profit from using one of the two approaches sketched
in my post above and watching players with truly effortless techniques like Grisman, Stiernberg, or Long.

What's so special about Doc Watson? To me his technique looks perfectly exemplary.

[Ken_P]

What's so special about Doc Watson? To me his technique looks perfectly exemplary.

His picking is almost 100% from the arm, while his wrist doesn't move at all. Works for him, of course, but it's pretty much the exact opposite of what you'd teach a new flatpicker or mandolin player.

[JeffD]

Several posters have hinted at the fact that none of this is static. That is, good pickers are continuously adjusting their hand "posture" to do different things as they play. I think that's worth emphasizing.

Here here!

[bbrizzy89]

Yea I'm entirely self taught on mando and have been playing for about 5 years. Im a big sam bush fan but he holds his mandolin way low down and yea like some of u said- makes it look really easy. It looks like he just strums and yet he hits single notes. I need help. Ive finally reached a point where my left hand can play the sam bush solo im transcribing, but my right hand cramps up after a few minutes of trying. What should I do???? HELP! lol

[Dick Hutchings]

Did you ever figure it out? I'm going through the same thing. Still trying to find an effortless pick stroke. I can't get any speed from a waving hand like I think others do. Are they really doing that or is there a bit of a twisting of the forearm involved? I can't really tell from the videos. All I know for sure is there seems to be zero forearm back and forth. My right hand is still the weak link in my playing. Obviously, I like the high speed bluegrass and Dawg stuff and I won't be satisfied until my right hand is capable. Trying to play EMD after watching the man play it so effortlessly has got me thinking about my right hand again.

Yea I'm entirely self taught on mando and have been playing for about 5 years. Im a big sam bush fan but he holds his mandolin way low down and yea like some of u said- makes it look really easy. It looks like he just strums and yet he hits single notes. I need help. Ive finally reached a point where my left hand can play the sam bush solo im transcribing, but my right hand cramps up after a few minutes of trying. What should I do???? HELP! lol

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'm 100% self taught as many of us are, & i had to watch players on DVD to 'see' what they did & take it from there. I saw that most players (Chris Thile's was the 1st DVD i got) rested the base of their wrist lightly on the bridge,so,that's what i tried first off. It worked for me & that's how i still do it.
Sam Bush plays with a very open hand which allows his pinky to brush the top of his Mandolin,hence the finish coming off.Did he play that way prior to his accident ?. It's quite literally 'different strokes for different folks' in the way we place our hands to play,we do what comes naturally to us,however i have to say that from my point of view,feeling my finger brush the top of the instrument when playing, would be off-putting,a bit like having a stone in one's shoe when walking.
Re.speed of picking. I use the strength in my right hand fingers a lot.After 46 years of banjo playing my right hand fingers are very strong. If i need to play fast,i dig in with my (pick holding) fingers & hold my wrist fairly still.That way i can get the speed & power without flailing my wrist all over. Richard above mentions EMD - a tune that i can't play (yet, maybe ?) & watching Dave Grisman's ease of playing brings me to another associated point - clarity. It no use whatsoever being able to play fast to the extent that your picking is a musical (or not) blur of mashed up notes - & we've all heard that stuff. One of the things that i have really concentrated on,is the clarity / precision of my picking. I noodle a lot,& when i do,that's when i'm mindful to get the synchronisation of my left & right hands going smoothly. It's just one thing to practice while not playing any 'particular' tune,thus,when i do play tunes / songs,my picking is as clean as i can get it. I'll play a tune a 100 times over (& do so), in order to get it sounding 'right' - some folks won't need to,but that's the way i have to do it,
Ivan

[mandotopia]

I believe Dave Appalon used a floating arched wrist. It looks like "What would Bill Monroe do?" has an analog on this blog "What would Sam Bush do?"

[wsugai]

I used to plant my pinky on the top (bad habit from my guitar-playing days) but I've moved to parking my picking hand on the bridge. Aside from fatigue, resting on the bridge makes it hard to pick in the sweet spot, which is just out of reach if my hand is anchored to the bridge. I've come to the conclusion that a floating wrist is probably the best all-around approach to playing.

Speaking of floating wrists, the "dislocated wrist" champion of mando playing has got to be Tim O'Brien. That clip of him on YT playing "Forever Young" makes it look like he's just shaking water off his picking hand with all these beautiful musical sounds pouring forth. I just can't believe my eyes every time I watch that clip. How is it possible?

[Martin Stevens]

Do you guys know why Stafford plants his fingers? Because he was a banjo player first and that is the way he played banjo. It was a technique he was "comfortable" with and it worked for him. "Comfortable" being a very, very important word.

Take some GREAT mandolin players like Thile, Andy Leftwitch, Sierra Hull and Adam Steffey. Chris Thile and Andy Leftwitch generally put their wrist lightly on the bridge and attack from there. Sierra Hull and Adam Steffey more-so either plant their pinky finger on the mandolin or brush against it. All four of them have a perfect tone and cleanness to their playing, but they achieve it with whatever way THEY are comfortable with.

[Austin Koerner]

You can't be a Steffey clone without planting.

[MandoPheel]

I agree with Martin - it's all about being comfortable with your technique. If you've got a relaxed hand and consistently produce good tone, why change? I'm a big fan of experimenting with different approaches (you don't know if you don't try), but I have rarely worked at anything new that I ultimately adopted (rest strokes being the most recent exception).

Phil

[Lou Giordano]

It would be so much easier for really green newbies like me to have a “right” way. That way I would not have to stumble around finding my way. Oh well, I will just have to work it out like you all have done.

I find resting on the bridge helps me get better leverage I guess and I get more volume. Then I think wait a minute. I am thinking of investing in a better bridge that will increase volume and sound better. Then I will be resting my big fat mitt on it and giving up what I gain. I don’t know.

[Brent Hutto]

Lou,

I'll bet you get most of the benefits of "resting" on the bridge from just letting a small part of your hand lightly touch near the end of the bridge. I've found that the first bit of touch to keep my hand oriented and remind me to pivot at the correct point gets 90% of the benefit of resting on the bridge at the cost of very little deadening of the tone.

Then the magic part is, I can momentarily wrap the rest of my hand onto the bridge when I want to get a quieter, more "controlled" dynamic range at certain points in a song.

[JeffD]

It would be so much easier for really green newbies like me to have a “right” way. That way I would not have to stumble around finding my way. Oh well, I will just have to work it out like you all have done.

Life would be easier if there was a "right" way.


To some extent it depens on where you are coming from. If you start out primaily a chord rhythm player, planting probably won't feel right. If, like me, you start out as a single note melody player, free floating just feels wierd.

After awhile the right hand position is flexible, floating when it needs to be floating, brushing or semi planted when it needs to be, and firmly planted when that works best.

One thing I do that I don't see many of our mandolin heroes do is to keep my hand relatively open. My third, fourth, and fifth fingers just hang there natural, not balled into a fist, and not splayed out in a fan. This seems to allow me to switch from floating to planting, to brushing at will without much thought.

Try stuff out, stick with what works best. Repeat.

[mandroid]

Just added a small finger rest to my Mix A5, missed having one.. .
after fixing mando habits for a couple decades, on the old Gibby A's..

but the peer pressure is off way out on the fringes, here
even the need for speed is gone ..

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Funny, I've just been going over this with myself.

I went from a short necked oval to a "regular" length I'd guess you'd say. Anyway, I have never been comfortable planting my pinky or dragging fingers, so I rest on the bridge. Never had a problem with the short neck, now for some reason I'm having an issue with the corner of the saddle rubbing the fleshy part of my palm to the point where its becoming sore and also occassionally muting the D or G. I'm trying to figure out a way around this but for the life of me can't figure out why I'm only doing it on the long neck, not the stubby.

[Brent Hutto]

CBGC,

Perhaps the distance from bridge to "sweet spot" is different on the long- and short-neck instruments. If so your hand may no longer fall onto quite the same spot relative to the bridge so you're kind of moving it around to find the right spot.

In any case, one possibility is to smooth or round off the top corner of the bridge like this



I don't know why most bridges have such sharp and uncomfortable corners but the one on my new mandolin feels like a dream!

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

That's pretty much what I was assuming Brent, it just boggles my mind that I havent adjusted to it yet as I havent touched a short neck in almost 2 months now.

The thing with the bridge, the corner is nice and rounded. I watched a lot of videos last night of Compton and Marshall both seated and standing and see that they tend to anchor more with their forearm. Something I need to start practicing immediately I guess.

[jasona]

Keep in mind that Marshall uses an armrest.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

I've been considering one, but I like to keep things simple. I still have yet to use a strap.

Oh well, old, bad habits linger for awhile then die hard I guess.

[JeffD]

Take some GREAT mandolin players like Thile, Andy Leftwitch, Sierra Hull and Adam Steffey. Chris Thile and Andy Leftwitch generally put their wrist lightly on the bridge and attack from there. Sierra Hull and Adam Steffey more-so either plant their pinky finger on the mandolin or brush against it. All four of them have a perfect tone and cleanness to their playing, but they achieve it with whatever way THEY are comfortable with.

Speaking only for myself. What makes these players great is that they have talent. They are better at the mandolin than most people are at anything. I could emulate, even duplicate, what they do with their picking hand, what ever it is, and never come near anywhere close to anywhere close to playing as well as they do.

I am not implying that technique doesn't matter, or that talent is more important than technique, not at all. Nor do I think I couldn't improve if I changed this or that or did this or that. But for me, emulation of my musical heros with the hopes of getting on the same block as them, or even one block over... "more ardently to be wished than seriously to be expected."

Well I might emulate Marty Stuart's hair. Its so cool.

[Brent Hutto]

Let me ask this of fellow "hand touches the bridge" players...

Do you ever play way up over the 20th fret or where ever is that "sweet spot" that so many players use for their normal tone?

With my preferred hand placement all my picking is in the 2-3 inches right above the bridge. If I want to play a couple inches higher and use that "sweet spot" I have to either hover my hand or let my pinkie brush the top for a reference point. I like the sound I get from my instrument in my normal place but moving up two more inches gets more volume and a more big, open tone so I do like a touch of that once in a while.

Is that one reason some people use a pinkie-brush or play with a finger rest, so they can use the "sweet spot" all the time?