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Thread: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

  1. #26
    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Perhaps it was mentioned above & I missed it, but one thing that helped me was some advice given to me by Alan Bibey.

    The advice was to greatly decrease the length of my pick stroke. This is almost the direct opposite of the rest stroke (which I also use sometimes). A short push through the string course and immediately reversing the pick direction; this is a very small movement and can be cleanly executed very quickly with a little thoughtful practice. It's just one more tool to experiment with and incorporate into your playing as needed. This helped me to clean up a lot of the sloppiness which crept into my attempts at fast playing.
    Phil

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  2. #27
    Registered User fredfrank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gerety View Post
    Fred, I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are doing. Can you do a video? Or elaborate a little more?

    I don't have any video capability. Basically, my hand, wrist and pick travels in a straight line up and down, but at a slight angle to the strings. That way I don't have to manipulate my thumb and index finger to dip down to pick the note. That was a technique I had picked up while watching Jesse McReynolds do his crosspicking. It looked like his thumb and forefinger were squirming all over the place.

    After watching a video of an amazing player, I decided to try and simplify my picking motion. So I began a quest to find the simplest, most efficient method I could use to pluck the string. Economy of motion, by taking my fingers out of it using only the wrist action, and moving slightly off parallel from the strings seemed to do it.

  3. #28
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    I think I get what Fred is on about--you can see good pickers sometimes come into the strings with the pick from an angle outside the plane of the strings, and a loose wrist helps with this.

    Swampy, what's weird is that I have that shakin'-water-off loose wrist for fiddle, but it doesn't translate to mando--different angle. So I'm working on it, but damn it's slow going.
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

  4. #29

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    One other thing I have found that may help: I have noticed it's a lot easier to play tunes convincingly at high speed if I come at it with a positive mental attitude. I have found it's all too easy to be tentative especially when I've done a lot of working up of a tune or I expect to fail for some reason. It really helps to believe that I already have what it takes to own a high speed tune, and visualize myself doing it confidently and successfully. I know that sounds a bit flakey, but you have to find the confidence somehow.

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  6. #30
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by OldSausage View Post
    I know that sounds a bit flakey, but you have to find the confidence somehow.
    Coffee. Coffee helps!
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  7. #31
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Hmmm....I'm not a coffee drinker. But am fond of a little liquid courage now and then, in the form of a good Irish whiskey. In a big mug.

    As a music teacher, I'm a big proponent of the adage: "Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're probably right." But my attempts at uptempo playing keep disproving my own optimism.

    When I watch some lightning fast mando pickers, I notice that most tend to vary between the larger "rest pick" approach, and the smaller pick motion Phil describes, depending on what they need to do to get specific notes. And that gibes with what I do on guitar. So I'll keep aiming for that.

    I'm also doing some extra woodshedding on up picks, as advised by Mike Marshall. Discovered yesterday that I tend to slow down a gnat's hair when changing strings on certain up-picked string crossings.

    And I suspect that decades of playing fiddle have hard wired my wrist to be loose on the diagonal, rather than the more "horizontal" motion needed for mando. So I'm back to patience, patience, patience, and isolating my wrist from my forearm.....
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    This is a great thread!. All these good ideas should help turn us into blazing pickers.

  9. #33
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Lonelyhearts View Post
    Hmmm....I'm not a coffee drinker. But am fond of a little liquid courage now and then, in the form of a good Irish whiskey. In a big mug. .....
    I am a bourbon type of guy.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  10. #34
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Is the premiss that everyone should be able to play the same speed if they adjust their technique?

    Or is it with better technique you can play faster than you do now but maybe not as fast as you'd like?

  11. #35

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    i'll never be a Scagg's or a Marty Stewart. There is no get faster. I have physical limits. As long as that doesn't effect others i'm cool. I'm not that slow but the band would have to slow down, and that ain't cool. When im on a fiddle i slow down for them, so that's how it works.
    Around a jam i'll pick up a mandolin and noodle something. Somebody'll say hey, and grab a guitar, then a banjer, then before you know it, I'm swamped. I hand the mandolin back to the owner and pick my fiddle back up. Time and time again. You'd think i'd learn.

  12. #36

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    My assumption would be that if we put in as much work as blazing fast pickers, unless we have some disability preventing us, (i.e. we're in the majority of the bell curve of natural ability) we should probably be able to play at least 80% of their speed, assuming they perhaps have some kind of natural advantage in their physiology which we don't possess. So if Bill Monroe could play Rawhide at 190bpm, which he could, I should be able to play it at 152bpm, which in fact I can, albeit not quite as well as Bill.

  13. #37
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Heh, I like that 80% target. I'll be happy when (not if) I get to 126 bpm without straining. But ideally I'd like to reach 140 bpm, which is 80% of Thile and Marshall playing Big Mon amidst a bunch of other stuff on a YouTube clip I like.

    As for this thread, I'd still like to see some more concrete suggestions for improving speed, smoothness, and accuracy, such as the string crossing drills I cited in my opening post. Anyone have something similar, focusing on the pick hand? (I already have a ton of folded scale and arpeggio stuff I do.)

    Thanks!
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

  14. #38
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    So, with the same training and equipment we should all be able to play golf 80% as well as Tiger Woods or using the same premis with the same criteria of like training we should all be able to run 80% as fast as some of the most gifted athletes. Music is no different than those sports and comparing yourself to the best mandolin players, golfers or athletes is going to leave many people disappointed.

    Don't just be defeatest about it and keep working towards your goals and you'll get closer to them but you might have to change your goals to fit realities.

    LOL. Can you tell I'm pushing 60 years old and have had several surgerys to fix repetitive movement issues with my left hand and arm after playing since I was 16. I've had to come to terms with not being able to hang with many bluegrass players. On the other hand I've found playing jazz, even at high speeds you can play something interesting that fits the song and isn't blistering fast, just tasty.

  15. #39

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Concrete suggestion: Practice is good, but you can't throw yourself a curveball. The ultimate would be to play enough that you don't have to practice.

  16. #40

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Lonelyhearts View Post
    Heh, I like that 80% target. I'll be happy when (not if) I get to 126 bpm without straining. But ideally I'd like to reach 140 bpm, which is 80% of Thile and Marshall playing Big Mon amidst a bunch of other stuff on a YouTube clip I like.

    As for this thread, I'd still like to see some more concrete suggestions for improving speed, smoothness, and accuracy, such as the string crossing drills I cited in my opening post. Anyone have something similar, focusing on the pick hand? (I already have a ton of folded scale and arpeggio stuff I do.)

    Thanks!
    Please keep in mind that I'm not a great (or even good) fiddle tune or bluegrass player. I know faster paced music is present in many forms of music but the thread seems to be leaning in the bluegrassy direction - so consider the source.

    Now that I've firmly established my credibility...as far as focusing on the right hand is concerned I have benefited from duo style playing. This got me from being a fairly slow player to being a not so slow player . I'm not sure where this would land in bpm. I suppose a pattern might look like (deeeee aeeeee aeeeee aeeeee) 'd,a, and e strings' using down up strokes throughout. It's 6/4 and I like to create a melody by changing the first note of each six note set (especially the a string). Just a thought.

  17. #41
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    I practice enought to keep the playing fun, and I play enough to keep the practice relevant.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Registered User MnRoss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Don't know if this has been touched on but for me to be able to play a break super fast, it has to be mindless in a sense. I have to know that song so well that my left hand is there on the note when my right hand is picking it and my mind can be thinking about the next passage visually. For super fast breaks I go over and over what I'm playing until it just falls under my fingers and I don't really think about it. Than using a metronome or the recording of the song I work it up to speed. Sort of makes for stupid breaks as they will always be the same for awhile but soon enough I can break out of that and really explore the song once I make it mindless, because I can always fall back on that when I'm lost for notes.

  19. #43
    Registered User fredfrank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Quote Originally Posted by MnRoss View Post
    Don't know if this has been touched on but for me to be able to play a break super fast, it has to be mindless in a sense. I have to know that song so well that my left hand is there on the note when my right hand is picking it and my mind can be thinking about the next passage visually. For super fast breaks I go over and over what I'm playing until it just falls under my fingers and I don't really think about it. Than using a metronome or the recording of the song I work it up to speed. Sort of makes for stupid breaks as they will always be the same for awhile but soon enough I can break out of that and really explore the song once I make it mindless, because I can always fall back on that when I'm lost for notes.

    I would agree with this statement 100%. Any time I try to improvise at a quick tempo, it's like plummeting down the mountain on a mountain bike. One wrong move . . .


    You have know the material period.

  20. #44
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Yep, I tend to go over and over (and over) the tunes and breaks I play till I can't pay it wrong. I wish that was the obstacle to playing faster for me.

    It feels like I have a governor on my right hand. So I'm just gonna woodshed away till I can reset the governor to 126 bpm or higher.

    I did stumble on a "picking burst" drill that seems to be helping. I was picking to a metronome set at 60 and went back and forth between picking only once per click to picking DUDU on each click, then immediately back to picking once per click. As this became easier, I'd lengthen the DUDU into DUDUDUDU, and then longer. At one point, I was comfortably picking (it felt like a tremolo) at 120 bpm--faster than I've gone to date.

    I'm surprised that there aren't more of these sort of right-hand-only picking warm ups or exercises to help people improve on smoothness, accuracy, and speed. Maybe I haven't seen the right books/dvds.... Maybe there's a market for such a primer?
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

  21. #45

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    You seem to have tried everything so I imagine you have the Mike Marshall mandolin techniques DVD. That has some great, simple right hand drills, I would imagine anyone who did those each day for a few months would improve their picking speed. The main thing that usually slows me down is string crossing, since on a single string it's really no different to tremelo, and Mike addresses string crossing at length on his DVD.

    Is string crossing the issue, or can you not tremelo on a single string at 120 bpm (4 notes per beat)?

  22. #46
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    My problem really is just basic picking speed, even on a single string.
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

  23. #47

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Well, maybe that's actually a good thing, because it's probably the easiest to fix. Is there any way you can post a video of you attempting to pick at speed so we can figure out what's going wrong? Can you wiggle your wrist at 120 bpm at all, like I mean when not holding a pick or being anywhere near a mando? Can you beat an egg?

  24. #48
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    See, I can "wiggle my wrist" well when playing fiddle--accustomed to playing in 4/4 at 140 bpm and faster. I can even play crisp, clean bowed triplets (I've played Irish fiddle for 30 years) any tempo. That's as small and fast a motion as you're gonna see in a wrist.

    But for fiddle, the wrist works more on the diagonal, and mando it's along the lateral axis of the forearm, so maybe I just need to train different muscles and nerve synapses.

    I honestly don't think it's my technique--I don't grip the pick, I don't anchor my hand, I'm relaxed and smooth. All I was hoping to dredge up with this thread were other people's ideas of specific right-hand exercises to help with picking speed. Seems I'm good enough at making those up on my own....
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

  25. #49

    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    I agree, it certainly seems like you have all the right ideas. If it were me I think I would really focus on exercises where it was just the right hand, an open string and the metronome. Go for short bursts of fast notes like you have been doing, and longer sustained picking at whatever speed you can maintain. In order to execute tremelo that pick hand must wiggle at even faster rates, and it will. But also work on the string-crossing exercises, that way when you do build up speed you will be ready for the harder part. I would absolutely recommend just studying the heck out of the right hand exercises on Mike Marshall's DVD. It's a great resource if you mine it diligently.

    It may also be helpful to watch video of people who do it well (or see them playing live when you can of course, as I'm sure you do). I love to watch the Homespun Tapes DVD of Bill Monroe, for example, for me it's "monkey see, monkey do" and I pick up a lot of subtle cues of posture and fine control that I can't get from reading words on a page.

  26. #50
    Yarrr! Miss Lonelyhearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Son of "How to increase picking speed?"

    Thanks, David. I do a lot of "mining" from all the YouTube clips of great pickers, and that does help a lot.

    String crossings and cross picking have come easy for me--3 decades of playing bluegrass banjo, I guess. My brain is wired to accept "rolls" in any form, so my cross picking is instantly as fast as anything I can do on a single string.

    I suspect I really just need to do another year or two of serious woodshedding. I'll go milk the Mike Marshall dvd for every gram of insight I can squeeze from it. Thanks!
    Oops! Did I say that out loud?
    Once upon a time: fiddle, mandolin, OM, banjo, guitar, flute, whistle, beer

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