Interesting early Gibson factory photo

[Tom C]

Best way to date photo may be the clothing. -The hats. What were they called and when were they popular. I've had no luck, but do look like "Little Rascals" era.

[delsbrother]

IF you think the print is from the original sheet film negative and
IF you believe the film is Kodak Verichrome and
IF you believe my sheet film reference table

THEN the photo could not have been taken earlier than 1931, which would rule out the 'teens/Loar-era speculation.

ALSO it is highly unlikely it was taken after 1946 (though I suppose it's possible the photographer could've used older discontinued film, especially during the war years).

Would this shop/personnel/material fit with what Gibson was doing during WW2? The workers seem to be older men, where the pictures from other eras seem to have a younger (draft-eligible) workforce.

As far as IDing the people, I don't know how much of a better one you're going to get than Roger's, and '40s fits nicely with the sheet film timeline. Of course, IF you believe the film is Fortepan, or something else, then all bets are off.

[mrmando]

I don't see a retractable pen. Guy's pen appears to be black with a medium-width barrel; could even be a fountain pen. The other fellow appears to have a mechanical pencil in his vest pocket, with the tip pointing upward.

Brilliant catch by Roger ... the vest buttons do indicate the photo was flopped.

[Jack Roberts]

The eyeglasses on the gent in the middle are Windsors, characterized by the round rims coated with zylo plastic, no nose pads and wire temples. They were popular in the first two decades of the 1900s, but relatively rare in the US after the early 30's.

[lloving]

The eyeglasses on the gent in the middle are Windsors, characterized by the round rims coated with zylo plastic, no nose pads and wire temples. They were popular in the first two decades of the 1900s, but relatively rare in the US after the early 30's.

What an interesting thread. What ever brought Jack Roberts back into the conversation, I'm glad it did.

I have two comments:

1: I currently ware a pair of glasses that are well over ten years old. So the glasses do not necessarily date the photo.
2: If this is not a dupe shot of an earlier print (I think not, I think it is a contact print of the original) then the notch indicates as said earlier that this is sheet film. Sheet film was used in cameras that presented the photographer an image on the focusing glass that was both reversed and upside down. I'm not sure but I think that explains why the notch position makes the image appear to be reversed. Couldn't it have just been printed right side up putting the notch in the bottom right not the top right? So i tend to agree with the prior posts identifying the film as more recent than the 121 roll film of the early 1900's.

Not much help but my .02 worth.

[Paul Hostetter]

I'll repeat what I noted when this photo was recently posted on Facebook: the negative is flipped. Look at the way the shirts are buttoned, and the direction of that one guy's fly.

Backwards:


Frontwards:


Not that this helps date the photo, of course.

[OU1]

Jim Triggs and I had lunch today and he brought over this photo that Charlie Derrington had given him when Jim was still at Gibson managing the custom shop. Said the photo is from the Gibson factory, but the date and individuals pictured are unknown. This may be a photo some of you have seen before and maybe I'm just not aware. Thought it was interesting and worth sharing, and who knows, maybe some day if enough of these little pieces of the puzzles are stitched together, we'll know the names of more of the creators of these instruments.

Here's a link to the hi-resolution file at 300 dpi, around 2MB.

Hi Scott and everyone in the cafe.....

I saw this picture and I recognized it from a book called "Spann's guide to Gibson. This picture along with more like this are in this book. This particular picture has a caption naming one of the guys in the photo. The cation reads " factory supervisor Ted McHugh and two other unidentified employees inspect some rough cut lumber on the first floor, circa 1928" (p. 4). You can speculate which one is Ted....anyway, it's a cool picture....thanks for posting it.

[MikeEdgerton]

Yeah, except this picture was posted on the cafe in 2009 and Joe's excellent book was published in 2011. Joe might have had it longer than that of course and he was probably already researching who was in the picture.

[Scott Tichenor]

Great photo, Scott. I'm not so sure I agree with the suggestions that the film was 121 roll film. Since the earliest days of Kodak's sheet film, they used a notch code in the upper right hand corner to identify the film (here seen at bottom right) and they had different batch codes on their sheet films. The notch would tell the photographer (in a darkroom) what type of film it was (by the number and shape of the notches), and which side the emulsion of the was facing (emulsion facing photographer when notch in upper right hand corner). In your photo, the notch is in bottom right (same thing as upper right, but rotated) which suggests that we are seeing the emulsion side. Also, the EASTMAN KODAK imprint is right-reading when seen from the emulsion side of its sheet films. However, when looking at the emulsion side of sheet film, one sees the image wrong-reading. Validating this is that men's clothing button left-over-right (women's clothing button right-over-left) - the men's clothing as shown here button right-over-left - which is incorrect. So the way you had this print originally (before it was flopped for this thread) was correct. The single V notch was used on all nitrate films prior to about 1950, so this could have been Verichrome Pan film, but its been decades since I've used it and I'm just not sure. Also, judging by the size of the EASTMAN KODAK imprint, the size of notch, and the six little white dots in the left edge (teeth of clip used to hold sheet film during drying), it appears that this was 8"x10" film and it would have been typical in that day to use an 8x10 view camera for commercial shots. So, since you can see the entire piece of film on your print, it was probably a contact print. Regarding the folks in the photo, I think the gentleman in the middle is Guy Hart. He was General Manager of Gibson from about 1925 to about 1950. He had more hair in his early photos so my guess is that this photo could have been taken in the 1940s. I'm not surprised about the dress of the day, or seeing a manager at that time wearing a tie. (Attached is how this photo would have look properly oriented - i.e., not flopped.)
Roger

I'll repeat what I noted when this photo was recently posted on Facebook: the negative is flipped. Look at the way the shirts are buttoned, and the direction of that one guy's fly.

Yes, yes, of course, which Roger Siminoff and others pointed out in 2009.

[lloving]

Well I sure missed that one. Artistically it's a more interesting image reversed since the eye naturally follows light from bright to dark, still as I said before none of this adds to the greater knowledge of who and when.

[TonyP]

It's been interesting to watch this thread and the debates over stuff. But it does all seem staged, and I'm more interested in process than I am the stuff the pics show.

I've worked in several factories myself, and the most interesting stuff is not always on the floor. What we always called the boneyard was where old equipment etc went to moulder, that was interesting to me. The really old stuff. None of these pic's seem to show much about process, but that probably was on purpose too. Don't want trade secrets getting out, right?

This interest lead me last night to check out a PBS show called the Woodwright's Shop. It's on the PBS channel that's free on the Roku. After watching him make a Cromwell table with period hand tools(no power tools), I noticed there was a show where he visited a period window sash co. in NY. It was like being in a factory in the 1800's. All these crazy machines that do the different process steps to make the different parts on a window sash frame. And all powdered by overhead belts with a single huge motor powering the whole thing. Probably steam at the time. Outrageously dangerous, but incredibly interesting. Not a guard to be seen. All this equipment probably pre dated what Gibson was using, but there was dust collectors on every machine. And like noted, I'm sure it wasn't about worker health, it was to get rid of the explosive dust. And since you had all the prime ingredients like sparks from machinery, and fumes from glues and finishes, I would want to keep that place pretty clean myself.

[MarkELynch]

Great photos and discussion!
I am passing through Kalamazoo today, does anyone have Gibson related sightseeing recommendations?

Best Regards,
Mark

[carleshicks]

You could swing by my house and we could compare Derringtons.

[Mike Steadfast-Ward]

Been awhile since folks wore a tie to work in the factory.

Yeah can be very dangerous, good way of getting hanged or strangled. Better to wear a clip on if you have to wear a tie!

[Steve Ostrander]

Great photos and discussion!
I am passing through Kalamazoo today, does anyone have Gibson related sightseeing recommendations?

The old factory is still there at 225 Parsons St. Heritage Guitars live there now.

[Jim Hilburn]

Fun to go back through this thread.
This is another photo from The Gibson Story. My guess is the subject photo wasn't taken in the original building. They show what we think of as the main building being built in 1917. Was that part just an addition because where were they building before if that means the entire building. 1917 is quite late. Must have been a matching addition at the rear.
Then a small addition in 1918 and another in 1935.
The smokestack and what appears to be a dust collector seem to be part of the 1945 building. However since this photo was after 1960 the dust collector could be a more recent addition. Then the 1945 and 1950 buildings seem to sandwich another already existing building.
I'd guess our picture is in the 1945 building.
Also someone mentioned that Ted McHugh was in the shot. If he's the guy in the more workman like clothes then his age and fact that he was a shop forman would make sense. If it's him, then thats the guy who invented the trussrod.

[Jim Hilburn]

So it's in Wikipedia. They built down the street from 1902 till 1917 when they moved into the Parsons St. building. Surprised I didn't know that.
After leaving Orvilles residence they opened at 114 Main which was a former bakery that was quite cockroach infested. Moved again in 1906 till they finally moved into Parsons.

[Jim Hilburn]

Also, it's pretty much unchanged today. So you can look at it pretty well on Google Earth.

[Tom C]

..And they must have left all those nice Handel tuners behind and had to go with all white ones in 1918.

[travellerbytrade]

So it's in Wikipedia. They built down the street from 1902 till 1917 when they moved into the Parsons St. building. Surprised I didn't know that.
After leaving Orvilles residence they opened at 114 Main which was a former bakery that was quite cockroach infested. Moved again in 1906 till they finally moved into Parsons.

OK, I'm taking on Wikipedia. The Gibson Company was never at Orville's residence. Their first factory was a rental at 114 East Exchange Place - in the alley behind 114 East Main (Witwer's retail bakery that was - presumably - clean and orderly for the general public to partake of). Please see my recent post on fb showing the 1908 Sanborn map of Gibson here https://www.facebook.com/Gibson.biography

The cockroaches came from the basement of Exchange Place, where, in the beginning, Mr. Witwer still had his wholesale production, with Gibson on the 1st and 2nd floors. This building was in downtown Kalamazoo. An addition was built onto this factory in 1906, originally intended for Flexner Bros. dry goods (thus the large windows in front). Flexner's opted for a larger store up on Main St. so Gibson took over the new addition.

They moved to Harrison Court in October/November 1909, which was northeast of downtown. They completed their move to Parsons St. between June and September 1917, which is north of downtown.

None of these three factories are really "down the street" from each other.

[Jim Hilburn]

Well I could have stated things more accurately, but if you find the Wiki page with the factory history you'll see the information is attributed to Wheeler, Carter and Spann.

[Jim Hilburn]

Hey, Traveller, I see your in Kalamazoo. Why don't you head down to the old factory and see if you can pinpoint where that picture was taken.
Also, is the current E. Exchange Place building the same one they were headquartered in? This would be where the majority of the oval hole instruments would have been built.

[travellerbytrade]

Hey, Traveller, I see your in Kalamazoo. Why don't you head down to the old factory and see if you can pinpoint where that picture was taken.

No need. The answer is in the photo you posted on April 17. It appears to have been taken in the dry kiln room built on to the back of the original factory in 1918. This is a single story addition with 10-12 ft. ceilings and cement floors. It had a fresh air duct that pushed air through the room and automatic sprinklers (probably the narrow diameter pipes running through the center of the photo). Former Gibson employees working at Heritage will verify that this is where they dried lumber. Note the spacers in between each layer in the photo.

I've read through the posts and you got your large garage-type door here http://www.kpl.gov/history/vfile/01_0027.jpg. This door faced east against the railroad tracks for unloading. There was actually two drying rooms, one for raw lumber unloaded right off the freight car (for a shorter drying period), and a second for cut lumber (for a longer drying period). Lumber was wheeled from one drying room to another.

Also, the guy in the 'conductor' cap is Ted McHugh and the guy in the middle is probably Guy Hart, born 1889-90, (note his rather pointy left ear with a notched lobe in all his photos). If so, this places the photo after 1923 and - my guess - before/around 1935. The guy on the other side is....OMG, it's Ren Wall! He's traveled back in time! There should be a thought bubble over his head that reads "I'm taking this one back with me."

Someone mentioned that the quality of the lumber doesn't look all that great. This could be around the time they made toys. My question is, why isn't there more lumber in this room? Shouldn't it be floor to ceiling drying racks? One more reason it may have been taken during the depression.

In addition, Gibson had blowers to all woodworking machinery by 1932. Now which way the air traveled, I cannot say.

[Jim Hilburn]

Thanks for that!
On the Wikipedia thing, the problem was my incomplete paraphrasing, not their information.

[Jim Hilburn]

So I've always thought I was pretty well informed on early Gibson and I've had my copy of the Gibson Story since the early 70's and all the information about the early factories is in there,but it still hadn't sunk in that the Parsons St. building was built so late, in 1917. They up-sized just in time for mandolins to begin to wane.
So that means most of the oval mandolins had to have been built at the Harrison Ct. facility which was open from 1911 till 1917 when they were selling like hot cakes.