Spruce vs. Cedar?

[hank]

No Tony, the O.P. topic began with Spruce vs Cedar but a desire to understand buyers reluctance to purchase these newer woods brought it back. In that light both the top plate and the back are under much of the same scrutiny and ripe for discussion here. I believe many players want to follow tradition regardless of the merits of these newer tone-woods but for others there is still a question of tone or mechanical longevity for a multi thousand dollar investment. An example: Cocobolo is such an oily wood that I personally have a hard time warming up to the glues required to build with it. I would be concerned about a Cocobolo fingerboard creeping over time as well for the same reasons. The only ways for me to change my way of thinking is a new experience contrary to my belief or enlightening discussion as we are having here now.

[Br1ck]

What makes top wood discussions less than exact is that there are so many variables to consider, both in the individual wood sets and the construction parameters. If I were doing a custom build. I'd have extensive talks with my luthier and trust his ability to deliver with whatever wood he or she felt would work best.

[Charlieshafer]

This is more of a question than a comment, and more perhaps for Spruce or a builder. How much does location have to do with quality of the wood? Just knowing the New England forests, I can't imagine (outside of the renegade appy spruce that might still be around) that any of our forests would produce good tone wood for tops. The forests have all been clear cut several times over 300 years, and outside of some easter white pine from Maine, the trees that have grown back into old abandoned farmland are pretty manky. We'll occasionally get some great old maple, or even apple, that can look really nice, but tops? Can't imagine it.

[foldedpath]

I believe many players want to follow tradition regardless of the merits of these newer tone-woods but for others there is still a question of tone or mechanical longevity for a multi thousand dollar investment. An example: Cocobolo is such an oily wood that I personally have a hard time warming up to the glues required to build with it. I would be concerned about a Cocobolo fingerboard creeping over time as well for the same reasons.

You're not wrong about that. The owner of the cocobolo/cedar instrument in that sound clip I posted above, has had some serious issues with seam separation. It may be possible to build for better longevity with cocobolo, but that particular instrument isn't a good argument for it.

I've also heard it can be nasty to work with, in terms of possible allergy reactions. And if you needed any MORE disencentive (although I do like the wood when it works), cocobolo has just hit the CITES list as of this January, that will make it more difficult for luthiers and dealers to move product overseas without additional paperwork. That shouldn't affect owners of the instruments who are exempt, but it will probably be more rare to see this wood used in the future. The CITES rules are also hitting any species of "Indian" and other rosewood now, and that's another whole kettle of worms.

The other more mainstream mandolin-building woods we've talked about here like maple, spruce, cedar, and redwood aren't currently affected by any of this... except in terms of availability of highest-grade tonewoods from increasingly depleted sources (more kettles of worms).

[Mandobart]

My main player (2010 Morris hybrid F4) has a WRC soundboard, bigleaf maple neck back and sides, and cocbolo fretboard and cocobolo body points. Sound is great to me and those I play with. No issues with it at all so far.

[Fretbear]

I have a 40 year old Yamaki Dread with a cedar top. They won't stand for too much finger rubbing (Hansard's poor guitar was mentioned) but as far as a steel-string's sound goes, very beautiful and mellow as well.

[Billy Packard]

I'm coming late to the party but I have an interesting anecdote.

I have a 2007 Weber Fern I bought new in 2009 at Sylvan Music in Santa Cruz, CA. I sent it back to Weber for stainless steel frets in November of 2012. Bruce and I agreed to have him re-graduate the top and back plates to reduce weight and improve tone. During the re-do Bruce called me to tell me the top was Cedar! He was surprised and was not aware that this had happened. This mandolin is a towering voice with everything a player could want & everyone who has heard it and played it is awed.

I can't say for sure about spruce verses cedar but this particular mandolin is spectacular in every way with a cedar top.

Billy

billypackardmandolin.com

[red7flag]

Just a quick follow up. I received an email from Lawrence Nyberg recently. He looked through his stash of Western Red Cedar and did not find any that would fit the needs of the mandola he is making for me. He has recommended and I agree that we continue the plan to use engelmann for the top. He feels that will provide the tonal warmth that I am looking for in that instrument. We also decided on dark, maybe ebony or the like, binding. That sounds awesome to me even though I had not considered that approach. Lawrence is a pleasure to work with and I trust both his judgement and skill as a luthier.

[Dave Kirkpatrick]

I'm having Max Girouard make me a new mandolin and I couldn't decide between spruce and cedar for the top. Bruce Harvie's advice about letting the builder make the call was exactly what I needed to hear, so I've left that decision in Max's hands, which are far more capable than mine. Thanks.

[multidon]

Missing from this discussion is the fact that the term “cedar” can be almost as confusing as “mahogany”. Just like woods called “mahogany” collectively, there are a number of different species lumped under the “cedar” terminology. They get grouped there mainly because they all share the characteristic of being aromatic. For the sake of accuracy, only the genus Cedrus is true cedar. Therefore all of the cedars used in North American instrument making are cedars only in a more liberal usage of the term. We often see Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata), with a very straight grain and more yellowish red color. It is quite soft with a Janka hardness of 350. Much less common in instrument making is Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperius virginiana). If is much redder than western and much harder with a Janka of 900. It’s more difficult to use for instrument making, because the grain is often not straight and it is also often knotty. Dulcimer makers in particular seem to like the knots. Then there is Port Orford Cedar (Chamaecyparius lawsoniana). More rare, resembling Western Red Cedar in appearance but harder. The grain is very straight, and the wood is used for arrow shafts as well as instruments. And of course there is the ubiquitous Spanish Cedar (Cedrela odorata), often used for cigar boxes and guitar necks, with a Janka of 600 and an appearance more like mahogany than the rest of the cedars.

So you see, we have 4 different “cedars” being used for instrument making, and they are 4 different genera, each with unique properties. So it really is meaningless to call an instrument top “cedar” unless you are more specific.

[Jeff Hildreth]

multidon

"Then there is Port Orford Cedar (Chamaecyparius lawsoniana). More rare, resembling Western Red Cedar in appearance but harder."

In no way does Port Orford Cedar resemble western red cedar.
Port Orford is a cypress and is more closely related to Alaskan Yellow Cedar.. also a cypress.

Western red cedar is .. duh.. red or variants of red.

Port Orford and Alaskan Yellow Cedar are.. duh.. yellow or cream colored and both have been used as substitutes for Spanish or Mediterranean cypress as is used in flamenco guitars.

Western red cedar is soft and prone to splitting. Port Orford and Alaskan yellow have neither attribute.

Full disclosure.. Former wood broker of rare and exotic wood specializing in instrument grade and species.
I live in the middle of Port Orford territory and have quite a bit of both Port Orford and Alaska Yellow in my shop as well as the much more common Western Red Cedar.. Limes and Persimmons.
To Add.. I have about 20 Port Orford trees on my property.

[multidon]

My apologies Jeff. I guess when I said they “resembled” each other, I was mainly referring to the very straight grain. I did play a guitar with a Port Orford top once. Very nice guitar. As I recall it had a VERY slight reddish cast. Maybe the maker added a toner to make it look more like “cedar”?

I am not a fan of Western Cedar for the reasons you give above, the softness and propensity for splitting.

[Dave Kirkpatrick]

This is why I put this decision in the capable hands of Max Girouard.

[Jeff Hildreth]

No apology necessary.. wood is always a tough call.
If you would like a sample set of any of the fore mentioned.. let me know.. be glad to send some gratis.
Everything I have is well aged.. at minimum, 20 years plus. and that is in my shop. Prior, hard to tell as most of it was harvested as downfall (with permits)

[MontanaMatt]

My Weber is Port Orford, and rings like a bell, with lots of headroom for heavy picking. Not woody or woofy.
But that is also how most high end Montana Webers sound, with any var. of top, IMO.

[soliver]

Ken Ratcliff just finished my SA Econo A with a Cedar top,... very very nice instrument with a very different tone from a spruce topped instrument. Very warm and dark... love it!... Working on a vid to post soon.

[MontanaMatt]

Ken Ratcliff just finished my SA Econo A with a Cedar top,... very very nice instrument with a very different tone from a spruce topped instrument. Very warm and dark... love it!... Working on a vid to post soon.

Per the prior delineations, which Cedar?

[multidon]

Indeed, Jeff, wood is always a tough call from the musician standpoint. All we get to see is the finished product. Even if just a clear finish is used, the finish can affect how we see the color dramatically. And we also usually don’t know what kind of toners have been used. We hardly ever get to see the raw wood. As you can see by my post, I do try to get as much information about the specific species of wood in my instruments as I can. The lumber industry does not make this easy, the way they play fast and loose with terminology! Don’t even get me started on “mahogany”! I still haven’t forgiven Martin for using sipo and calling it “mahogany”!

Another wood that’s been mentioned here is redwood. From the sequoia tree I think? Related to the cypress family. Janka hardness in the 400’s. My wife has a dulcimer with a figured redwood top that’s absolutely stunning to look at. I would be willing to bet redwood would make a nice mandolin top, it has a good strength to weight ratio. Port Orford too. But I just don’t think I would be comfortable with Western Red Cedar.

[pheffernan]

This is why I put this decision in the capable hands of Max Girouard.

As I recall, a couple of pickers with better knowledge of wood (Bruce Harvie) and mandolins (Don Grieser) than I have raved in these parts about a certain stash of bog cedar that Max had been using.

[Dave Kirkpatrick]

As I recall, a couple of pickers with better knowledge of wood (Bruce Harvie) and mandolins (Don Grieser) than I have raved in these parts about a certain stash of bog cedar that Max had been using.

That's right. I had a mandola made with a top from that batch of bog cedar and it was phenomenal. I requested cedar then and that's what I got, but I've always felt I should've let Max make the call on what wood to use. I've had the opportunity to play several of his instruments, most with spruce tops, and have been impressed by every one of them.

[Max Girouard]

From left to right, western red cedar (Thuja plicata) Port Orford cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana), Alaskan yellow cedar (Cupressus nootkatensis) and redwood (Sequoioideae). On the redwood I'm not entirely sure if it is Sequoiadendron giganteum or Sequoia sempervirens. Also, the Port Orford cedar I have shown is an unusual sample in regard to the visible flame but it's all I have at the moment.

As for the Janka harness numbers, these are only averages and don't account for the variation and overlap in species. For instance, I have some WRC that is harder and more stiff than a certain pile of Engelmann I've have in the shop. At the same time I also have another pile of Engelmann that is just as hard as some of the red spruce I have at the moment.

I've built a couple dozen mandolin family instruments to include mandola's octaves and even a mandocello with western red cedar. It is also very popular in the classical guitar building world. I have found some raw lumber with internal splits or wind shakes, but most of what we processed came out fine. It helps to have a good wood supplier like Bruce to weed out the bad stuff. Western red cedar is also one of the most dimensional stable woods you can use for a top in regards to shrinking twisting and warping. With all that being said, I wouldn't worry about it for use in an instrument, provided it is a good piece of wood to begin with.

[hank]

Max your comment on the dimensional stability of WRC brings to thought a couple questions? Do some woods absorb moisture more readily than others? What is the relationship between a woods dimensional stability and its porosity. We seal the outside but the interior is open to soak up whatever moisture available when the case is opened. Generally there isn’t much endgrain exposed if any inside the instrument. Now that we have cooked wood options does autoclave oven drying change the woods absorbent qualities as well as making it more brittle and prone to splitting? I wonder if woods like cocobolo with oily pores could be improved for adhesion thru autoclaving.

[foldedpath]

Another wood that’s been mentioned here is redwood. From the sequoia tree I think? Related to the cypress family. Janka hardness in the 400’s. My wife has a dulcimer with a figured redwood top that’s absolutely stunning to look at. I would be willing to bet redwood would make a nice mandolin top, it has a good strength to weight ratio. Port Orford too. But I just don’t think I would be comfortable with Western Red Cedar.

I'm still playing the redwood-top Lebeda I mentioned in 2009 earlier in the thread (link here). It's holding up fine; the top hasn't sunk or split, no additional dings aside from the first one I put on it, soon after buying it. The top feels hard like spruce, doesn't take a dent from a fingernail. There is the tiniest spot of separation at one area of binding that I've been keeping an eye on, but it's stable and not progressing. Just needs a dab of filler.

Tone-wise, this redwood top mandolin still sounds great to my ears. It's not a classic Gibson/Bluegrass bark, a little shy on "warmth" compared to others I've heard, but it has a very "forward" and clear tone. It keeps up with the fiddlers in an Irish session, and doesn't disappear completely even when played along with smallpipes in a Scottish session.

I'm a little surprised we don't see more redwood-top mandolins. Jiri Lebeda was one of the few that put several on the market. I haven't seen redwood used much on acoustic guitars either. Maybe it's because it can be so variable in hardness? I know redwood can be pretty soft, like the wood used in picnic tables, so maybe it's not easy to find the harder stuff.

[multidon]

I’ve read that old growth redwood is harder, heavier, and denser than lumber from second growth trees. Old growth would probably make better tops generally speaking, but I don’t know if any is left out there unless someone has a stash.

[George R. Lane]

Port Orford cedar makes great arrows for long bows.