Rubber Grommets for the Mandolin

[Tim2723]

If you think this thread is nuts, you should read the one on the Martin forum (UMGF) in the technical section about plastic binding on guitars.

I don't think anyone should take this subject lightly. There are some very serious concerns about plastic and rubber compounds in relation to musical instruments. Some of the information in the music world at large is suspect from an observational standpoint - which is to say, being right for the wrong reasons - but as a polymer technology professional, I would never suggest that anyone take this lightly.

[JEStanek]

Never mind the Rubber ones ... Cheese, Grommet ?

I usually understand. This time you're just gonna have to color me stupid.

Maybe, if I spent more time in the shadow of a volcano.......

See my earlier post #38 on Gromit (he's the dog in the British stop motion animation duo Wallace and Gromit. People have been spelling his name Grommet like the string dampeners.

The cheese reference is to the short film by Nick Park Wallace and Gromit's Grand Day Out where Wallace wants to go on holiday so they make a rocket and go to the moon because Wallace LOVES cheese. They go, eat moon cheese then come home with some excitement along the way. Check out Wallaceandgromit.com for other details. Great films with fun soundtracks. Very British.

Nick Park did the animation for the commercials for the Sealy (I think) mattress counting sheep and soem for Burger King too. His is a recognizable style. In my last post, it was full of references to A Grand Day Out and another short A Close Shave.

Sorry to have been a bit of an obscurist. Check out the shorts (30 min each) or the Feature Film Wallace and Gromit and the Curse of the Wererabbit. Highly recomended for adults and kids.

Jamie

[mandroid]

It is admittedly a Joke explanation, but Gregjones is often on the road in his truck, and so may be excused if " the culture " passes him by ..

From film dialog, Wallace : asking question ... "Cheese , Gromit ? "

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108598/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104361/

[man dough nollij]

I usually understand. This time you're just gonna have to color me stupid.

Maybe, if I spent more time in the shadow of a volcano.......

Probably just a brain cloud...

[wogster]

Well, if you're using those products for long-term display of your instruments - that is, that they've been in contact with them for prolonged periods - and have seen no problem, then there's probably little cause for concern. It also depends on the finish of your instruments.

Outside of the polymer testing laboratory, it's very difficult to tell exactly what might be in a 'rubber' material. The Vinyl plastics often, but not always, have a couple of telltale characteristics. They are often smooth and glossy, they can have a thin oily surface film that never really seems to wipe away, and, if very new, can have a distinct odor. The plasticizers used to make them soft and pliable evaporate out of the plastic over time. They are what gives the 'new car smell' to an automobile's interior.

Remember that the problem cases center around instruments with delicate, traditional finishes, and involve things like plastic guitar straps from the 60's and Bubble Pack that is used as a general purpose packaging material for everything under the sun. The music world seems to be aware of the problem, so I would think (or at least like to think) that modern manufactures are sensitive to the issue. But I still wouldn't bet a valuable instrument on it.

And given that there are reports of varnish being disturbed even by things like cork, it would suggest that chemical interaction is not always the culprit. It appears that varnish can be harmed by a lot of things under the right circumstances, excessive pressure being suspect. This is why I question some of the observations in the cited article.

Yes that "new car smell" is mostly toxic gas.....

Many things can affect a finish, various chemicals can interact with it, moisture is a big culprit as well, I would think that mechanical damage is also possible, pressure is mostly mechanical damage as two surfaces move slightly against each other. This is why many violinists don't use chin rests at all, but put a cloth handkerchief between their chin and the instrument. Damaging the finish on a $100 kids violin, no biggie, damaging the finish on a 400 year old instrument valued at $10,000,000, by a $10 chin rest, uh, not something you really want to do.

[Coffeecup]

I've seen people stuff leather under the tailpiece cover for years but these are extra cool-- you can slide them into patterns to make people think you know something they don't!

Do it with grommets - graphic equaliser?



Do Gromits really damage mandolins? I blame the penguins.

[Tim2723]

Yes that "new car smell" is mostly toxic gas.....

At one time you could buy dioctyl-pthalate in a can. Spray it on your dashboard and your car smells like new. No kidding. People would do that.

[MikeEdgerton]

Manny, Moe, and Jack sell a "New Car Smell" spray. It really doesn't smell like a new car but it's pleasant.

[Tim2723]

Yeah, but it's not exactly the same stuff. The public can't get their hands on the dioctyl plasticizers anymore.

[MikeEdgerton]

Good because I don't like anything I can't pronounce.

[barney 59]

Do it with grommets - graphic equaliser?



Do Gromits really damage mandolins? I blame the penguins.

Someone wants to try your mandolin--"Yah o.k. !-but don't mess with my levels."

[Steevarino]

"Manny, Moe, and Jack. The three best friends your car ever had".

Man, I used to just love my Pep Boys t-shirt. Now it seems that most of my t-shirts have mandolins and/or guitars on them.

Anyone know where I can get a grommet t-shirt...? Not a toxic one, just something nice and inert, that won't soften my skin if I leave it on too long . . .

[John H.]

Hey Steve,
I used to have a Wallace and Gromit T shirt years ago, I don't remember where I got it.
How could have I missed this thread,I got a bag of 'em from Mc-Carr last month. Got enough grommits to last 5 lifetimes!! Got more grommits than mandos!
BTW Jamie, I really like my grommmits with a litte Wenslydale, been eatin' those little buggers like m&m's.

You's guys are a riot!
John Hudak

[John H.]

Btw, Soupy, how is The Loar opening up?

John

[gregjones]

Now I see why I missed it. Film/movies. The last time I went to a movie house I saw "The Right Stuff". 1983. 26 years ago. That, and I don't have a TV in the truck.

I hear folks talk about a lot of stuff that I don't know anything about. Once they explain it to me it basically has the same ol' Grace Slick/tree relationship.

I get Cheryl Netflix to keep her occupied while I'm on the road. Once in awhile I sneak something in her queue so it will be there when I get home. That takes careful timing or she'll send it back before I get there.

She is getting tired of David Allen Coe at Billy Bob's. I'm not.

I think------"I need a little time off"..............(DAC)

[CES]

Do Gromits really damage mandolins? I blame the penguins.

It's not the penguins, silly, it's the squirrels...those guys are up to something...

[CES]

but as a polymer technology professional.

Not even basketball season yet, but I'm already hearing Dicky V screaming that you're a "PTPer"...

[Russ Partain]

I actually tried the grommets. They did dampen the overtones of the tail piece. THe problem was that they too dampened the volume as well. My advice is to attack the source of the problem and no the symptoms. I got a James tail piece and got rid of the overtones as well as the grommets. My volume is back.

[AlanN]

My Gilchrist t/p dampens the overtones, too; hence, no need for the grommets. Before I installed that t/p, I used the grommets. I didn't notice a volume difference.

Chacun a son gout.

[JEStanek]

The James Tailpiece uses the grommets within the tailpiece itself. I'm not sure how the different placement of the grommets affected your overall volume. I'm not saying I don't believe you didn't hear a difference, I'm just saying I don't understand it. Maybe when you changed the tailpiece out the bridge was refit better when placed bac on the instrument?

Jamie

[MikeEdgerton]

The Gibson's are shipped with a piece of leather under the strings in the tailpiece. They don't have the issue that the grommet's are there to fix. I don't see how the grommets would affect volume or tone (other than supressing overtones), they are beyond the spot where it should make a difference.

[Tim2723]

Well, since grometts, leather, what have you, eliminate sympathetic vibration by absorbing and re-directing energy, and since energy is at the source of volume, then reducing energy would reduce volume. But the amount of energy is very small in this case, so the overall reduction in volume would probably be noticed only from the player's perspective. And of course, the sympathetic vibrations are part of the overall sound of the instrument, so removing them would affect the 'tone' of the instrument. Whether that affect is desireable or not is another question.

[MikeEdgerton]

That redirection of energy takes pace beyone the point where the srting touches the bridge, the point where the energy is transferred to the top. It should have no effect.

[Tim2723]

Yes, of course. But the energy is still there, that's why we hear the sympathetic vibrations. Without redirecting the energy, that sound energy would be noticed at close proximity. Since it is unamplified by the sound chamber (or at least very inefficiently so), it wouldn't contribute to the overall volume greatly, and probably not beyond the player's perspective under most conditions. The player might notice it, but no one else would. If you stretch a string between two points without a sound chamber and pluck it, it still makes a very faint sound because it vibrates air. But the sound is very faint indeed.

[MikeEdgerton]

That's the point. The bridge is the point where that vibration is transferred down to the soundboard. What happens beyond that shouldn't affect (in my mind anyway) anything. The sympathtic vibrations from the bridge to the tailpiece is its own animal.