Speed vs. volume?

[Slownsure]

I've been playing mandolin for about eight months and am working on breaks and general picking. I was recently told that I need to play louder in order to be heard at jams so I've been practicing that.

As I work at increasing volume, I've been noticing that: 1) the muscles in my right hand are more tense because I have to hold the pick more firmly, and; 2) I can't pick as fast because my "recovery time" after striking a string is longer.

My question: is this something that goes away with time and practice? Or does playing louder always mean that you'll sacrifice a little bit of speed and muscle relaxation, even for the best players?

Thanks for any thoughts.

[onassis]

Mike Marshall states in one of his DVD's that the faster he plays, the softer he plays. The smoothness and fine coordination needed in the right hand when playing cleanly at high speed seem to naturally limit volume. IMHO.

[shinerxl]

It is true that faster playing comes with a softer attack, or put another way, if youplay softer you can play faster. It's kind of like super light strings on an electric guitar means you can play really quick. However, on electric instruments volume is not an issue. The other cruel truth is that the higher the action, the more tone (and to some extent volume) you will have. So, what I do is go for light strings, not too low an action and a nice flexible plectrum. But, you are right, all these things do become easier with practice. The biggest trap to fall into is the "everlasting plectrum quest". Find somthing that could work and stick with it. I have seen too many players who never really settle because they are forever changing picks. Well, that's my humble opinion anyway. Cheers, Mark Shiner.

[Jim Broyles]

Well, there are a few factors missing from your post which could help us to help you. When you say "recovery time," what do you mean - time for the pick to straighten back out from hitting a string, or time for your picking hand to move to the next place it has to be to pick a note? You can still pick stronger without a big follow through, so if that's it, just reduce your stroke. If it's the pick recovery, go to a thicker pick. You will most likely be able to play faster with a thicker rather than a thinner pick. In addition to this, what kind of a mandolin are you playing? Some of them are just quieter than others and there's not much you can do to make them louder. Things such as heavier strings, a well fitted bridge, cast rather than stamped tailpiece, higher action and allowing the back to resonate via a Tone-Gard, or by holding it off your body can all contribute to more volume. Tell us about all this stuff and you will get a plethora of suggestions.

[Charley wild]

I don't disagree with Jim's statement about a thicker pick and recovery time. Stands to reason. But that being said I can actually pick much faster with a lighter pick. That's the main reason I use Fender heavy or extra heavy picks rather than a regular mandolin pick. I would guess it's because of the angle I hold my pick. But for what ever reason I CAN pick faster with a lighter pick. BUT I don't want to use a medium or a light for obvious reasons. Volume and tone!!

[Jim Broyles]

Charley, I don't like ANY so-called "mandolin pick" I've ever tried. The tone just wasn't there for me - too muffled. But a Fender heavy or extra heavy is the ticket. Might not be considered a mandolin pick it's the right thickness. My normal mandolin pick is really a guitar pick - Dunlop Ultex 1.14.

[Rob Gerety]

I'm with you guys on the pick thing. I like Fender and lately Martin heavy and extra heavy guitar picks. I did fall for the Blue Chip craze. Its a good pick too.

I also find that I tend to get more tense when I am playing at speed and trying to play loud. Just need to focus hard on staying loose.

[Charley wild]

Jim, I'm going to try some of those Dunlops. I see several players like them. I agree with with your post as far as Slownsure is concerned. More info is needed from him before any valid advice can be given. Too many varibles involved. I would be concerned with him trying to get more volume is going to make him less accurate at least in the short term. I would continue in that vein and bring up the fact that a jam is a jam. The idea is to have fun and maybe learn a bit. I'd personally worry more about playing clear and clean rather than volume. JMHO

[Slownsure]

In answer to Jim's questions:

1. Regarding "recovery time"... I think I use a longer stroke when I'm trying to play louder in order to get the necessary momentum to pick the string with more force. So I can't play as fast because there's more pick movement between notes. Also, having this longer stroke means I'm more likely to strike the strings on either side and sound sloppy. How does one use a shorter stroke and still play with the same volume, as Jim suggests?
2. I have a cheapo Johnson mandolin and use a Wegan pick.
3. Not sure how heavy my strings are, how well-fitted the bridge is, what kind of tailpiece it has - sorry, I still have a lot to learn about the mando!
4. The action's fairly low, so maybe it would help to raise it.

BTW, I'm not sure whether this makes a difference in the terms of the replies, but the poster is a "her" not a "him."

[Jim Broyles]

1. - Practice shortening your stroke but still striking with enough force to produce volume.
2. - The Johnson might never be loud. White or black Wegen? White - louder, black - quieter.
3. - Put a set of D'Addario J74s on that baby, but before you do, make sure you can't see any light between the bridge and the top. If you can, it has to be sanded to fit the top. It can be done by you, but you might want a pro to do it. Check on FRETS.com. to see how. Don't worry about the tailpiece. Get a cast one on your next mandolin.
4. - Set your action at about 5/64 at the 12th fret.
5. - Keep the mandolin off your body when taking a break - hold it out like a machine gun, until you can acquire a Tone-Gard. Look them up if you don't know what it is. They work.


Welcome, ma'am.

[Charley wild]

The first thing I'd recommend is having your mandolin set up. A friend has a mandolin of that price range and just a simple string change (brand and size) made a big difference. I believe a set up inexpensive or expensive mandolin is a must!
I think that you are the best one to determine if your pick stroke is a problem or not. By trying different pick strokes when you are playing alone will probably tell you as much as anyone here can! Also where are you picking? Close to the bridge, close to the neck? Experiment a bit and I think you'll answer your own question! I don't mean that to sound sarcastic.
Sorry, I assumed you were a male! An old (68yrs) habit that rears it ugly head too often! Let me assure that gender makes no different on this site. We'll jump on your case no matter what! Just kidding!

Jim beat me too it! I thnk we both have some good advice for you if I do say so!

[Slownsure]

Thanks very much for the help!!

[mandozilla]

BTW, I'm not sure whether this makes a difference in the terms of the replies, but the poster is a "her" not a "him."

Who knew? No way to tell until you told us...BTW, welcome, ma'am, to the Cafe and the wild wacky world of the mandolin.

I was at a jam today. Early on when there was only a handful (4 or 5) of folks it was easy for me and the others to hear each other. I played with a pretty relaxed and loose right hand and all was right with the world.

As time passed, more and more pickers showed up until we had about 9 or 10 folks and it became harder to hear one another. One of them shouted we can't hear the mandolin...instead of changing the dynamics of the group, I started playing harder and the result was a tensed up, slower and sloppy right hand.

I've experienced this many times at jams but hadn't given it much thought till today. My resolution is to only play hard enough to be able to hear myself and if no one else can hear me then they either quiet down a bit or they don't hear me. In the future I refuse to sacrifice clean picking for more volume.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Dfyngravity]

I think it is quite natural to loose a bit of volume when you increase speed. I feel there are several factors that lead to the loss of volume, at least for me:

1. I tend to pick closer to the tip of the pick, so there isn't as big of a snap to the strings.
2. I try to stay relaxed which seams to make me strike the strings with a little less force.

Then there are the techniques that increase speed and have natural decay of volume:

1. Hammer ons
2. Pull offs
3. Slides

Things to remember. You've only been playing for 8 months so speed will come with lots of practice. And you will notice that the more you become comfortable playing at a higher speed, volume will increase too because the speed won't feel as fast. Adam Steffey makes a great point on his DVD, if a song in a jam session is really fast and you are not too comfortable, play just the notes of the melody which will make it much more easier for you. Once you become comfortable you can start adding to it. Just because you are in a jam session doesn't mean you have to be a professional. Also, do you hold your mandolin against your body when you're standing at a jam session? If so, a tone guard might give you a little extra volume. By holding the mandolin against your body, you are not allowing the back of the mandolin to vibrate which causes loss of volume. These are just some things to consider.

[Ravenwood]

White or black Wegen? White - louder, black - quieter.

Jim, you lost me on this one. I have Wegen TF140's in both colors, but can't discern any difference in tone, volume or speed. Is there something I'm missing?

[Dan Johnson]

you need to start with a mandolin with good enough sound... then, maybe you'll find that it isn't always that important to play louder than everyone else... if what you're playing is right on time and your notes are clear, they'll cut into the spaces... that's what I find, anyways....

[Jim Broyles]

Jim, you lost me on this one. I have Wegen TF140's in both colors, but can't discern any difference in tone, volume or speed. Is there something I'm missing?

To me, the black ones I got, (which are not TF-140s) are softer and quieter than the white TF-140s I got. I figured the material was different. If not, - never mind!

[farmerjones]

Ditto on the 1mm pick.
Ditto on the J74s.

I did finally find a use for those flat rock style mando picks. I've got a few but never use them, as they are too clicky, for most tunes. I can't remember exactly what the tune was, but it was a fast reel. The rounded super thick Golden Gate pick released from one string to the next better. Plus the each tone came along fast enough to cover the click.
As far as volume goes i'm depending completely upon the instrument, which probably isn't correct. Watch Compton's technique and form. He's got the weight of his forearm in every note. While i don't plant a finger, i rest my hand behind the bridge, so i'm getting zero energy to the pick.

[David Miller]

I run into this phenomenon all of the time. Tunes and riffs I know I can play easily at hope fall apart in the jam, and it is all due to that "tension-for-volume" bugaboo. What I have done is worked on the rest of the instrument - Tone-Gard, strings, etc. to get the best volume and tone that I can from my Collings, and then force myself to keep it relaxed in the jam. If you are in a smaller group, try mentioning "hey, lets bring it down here" when it is your turn - dynamics are an integral part of music that often get lost in the live jam - the contrasts can be good for everyone involved. When it is a big group, I usually give up, sit back, and let the 25 fiddle players or guitarists duke it out among themselves.

[Rob Gerety]

Well, I'm often one of those guitarists competing with the fiddles and in our area often accordions - and worse, banjos - and I can tell you a guitar doesn't have a fighting chance either.

[onassis]

In my weekly jam, 5 or 6 of us hardcore regulars have really been working on the volume and dynamics issues lately. Some really stellar pickers come occasionally who are much more accustomed to a duo or trio situation, and just don't play loudly. We want to encourage them to keep coming (like I said, phenomenal pickers!), so we've been trying to lead by example lately, pulling WAY back during solos. The upside is that I'm playing in a much more relaxed manner during the jams now, a lot more like band practice or small group work. I hadn't realized just how much the quest for volume was impacting my playing style! From now on, I've decided not ot worry about whether anyone can hear me, and just play in the most natural way I can.

[Andy Fielding]

From now on, I've decided not ot worry about whether anyone can hear me, and just play in the most natural way I can.

I think he hit it on the head. A lot of it is attitude.

There are always people who try to play louder than everyone else. It becomes an escalating contest for volume, speed, flashiness—and that's gymnastics, not music. Please yourself before you worry about pleasing other people, and your music will always be better.

The great jazz virtuoso Art Tatum used to play solo piano in noisy bars. When people asked him if he resented the noise, he said, "If people want to hear me, they'll listen." (And man, did he play!)

I often find I play better in a noisy environment. If I can't hear myself clearly, my critical mind gets bored and wanders off, and suddenly everything is easy. That includes not worrying about volume.

[Jock]

Well I'll be dipped in dog £%&^, wow.....

A real discernible lift in amplitude and depth of tone from keeping the back off my body whilst playing. Who'd have thunk it

We'll I should have really considering the amount of vibration I've been feeling in my gut Everyday is another school day.

Don't know that I'll be getting a tone guard anytime soon, I think I'd rather build the instruments position into my playing. I do have a Cumberland Acoustics arm rest which keeps my forearm off the top (a great buy which makes a real difference for me) and thats likely enough scaffolding for now.

I find speed comes with familiarity and staying relaxed. If I find Im unable to get/sustain the tempo that a particular tune is played at, I just keep playing it on the back burner whilst changing my focus to learning new stuff.

[Red Henry]

Well I'll be dipped in dog £%&^, wow.....

Don't know that I'll be getting a tone guard anytime soon, I think I'd rather build the instruments position into my playing...

Good attitude. When the mandolin--especially a responsive one--is vibrating against you, you have a very close connection to what you're playing. With the instrument unencumbered, you can (1) feel it better, and (2) take your choice whether to 'pull that stop out' and really be heard!

...and then when you need to, you can really sound out. When a group's rhythm is very solid and a strong mandolin sound is called for, I sometimes play Randy Wood #1 held by only the strap and my left hand, with or without placing just the back-block binding against my chest. The sound swells off both the front and back of the instrument (an advantage that fiddle players have all the time!).

Red

[Don Stiernberg]

Dear Original Poster..

You should be able to play at any volume and keep your hands relaxed for the most part.
i've heard some players advocate a grip that's loose enough that you may even drop the pick occasionally--that's OK.Check your picking hand to make sure you're not moving the pick from the elbow. That would tense everything up. Sure, it works great for Doc Watson and Sam Bush, but they are exceptional in SO many ways. Most of us find elbow picking to ultimately be too athletic. Yet many of my students present that along with complaints similar to yours regarding speed, tone, volume, and endurance.
Another thing that might help is to make sure you are swinging the pick all the way through the string and the space between that and the next pair of strings. Also check how the pick contacts the string: Are you "slicing", at an angle, or does the pick meet the string dead on?
A drill that helps is to play some scales in tremolo AT ALL DYNAMIC MARKINGS. Particularly the extremes, double piano and double forte, will tell you a lot about your picking and grip.
Regarding equipment, hard pick vs. soft pick, triangle vs. round,one brand vs. another and so on, I humbly (and with respect to my fellow posters)submit a line I heard Dan Crary say at a guitar workshop: You're going to sound best on the mandolin and pick that you spend the most time with.
Checking in with a good teacher who can watch your technique and give you feedback could save a good deal of time though.
My teacher used to say that playing loud or fast was more a matter of accuracy, making sure the left and right hand were working well together and getting to their places at the right moment. Consequently, slow practice actually enhances speed and volume.
Keep it fun and loose, be encouraged, and it will come.