Bluegrass Band Timing/Togetherness

[Pete Martin]

A band needs to be like-minded and realistic about goals. If everyone is willing to practice with a metronome at home and during band rehearsals, they will not only get better time for themselves, but will develop the crucial ability of learning to listen outside of themselves. This is one element that makes good bands sound great.

Practicing without that awareness probably won't give the desired results.

Sometimes trying to get an ensemble to play in better time is like pulling teeth. Many times folks playing for fun don't worry about it, they just play.

You can find better musicians to play with. Often (not always) the better a player is, the more they pay attention to timing. Timing is the first thing I listen for in any musician I play with. If they have good timing and understand how the sublties of group timing interact, it opens up all kinds of musical communication between the players. Huge fun that way. If they don't, I know I have to play very straight and simple and keep the beat as accurate as possible.

About the only thing you can do here is vow to make your OWN timing much better. Consistent metronome use is a good place to start.

By the way, John has an excellent video on using a metronome and discusses many issues of timing, I highly recommend it!

[OldSausage]

I'm really learning a lot from what people have to say in this thread. I've got John McGann's DVD and it's very informative. Does anyone know of any instruction material that deals specifically with rhythm and timing for bands? I would really like to see, for example, a professional band explain how they work together rhythmically. I spend a lot of time working on breaks and solo playing, but it seems to me like maybe I'm wasting my time: if the band was really laying down a great rhythm together I could play almost any old break and it would sound just fine.

[catmandu2]

I'm sure someone, or everyone, has already mentioned this, but I'll say: learning to hear while playing is crucial. As a bassist, I'm especially sensitive to even subtle variances of time and I'll notice immediately when someone isn't linking-up with me. I can easily tell when someone either: isn't hearing me; not attempting to listen for me, or; isn't able to respond to what they're hearing (play in the pocket). An exercise could be to have each member play in duet with the bassist to make sure everyone is capable of playing in that pocket. This is also good exercise to instill the discipline of listening for the bassist's time. If it becomes evident that someone's time varies, you can work together to resolve it (i.e., identify where and under what conditions precipitate varying time). Often, folks simply don't hear, for whatever reason. Or, with diagnostic exercises, trends become exposed such as when a person begins to sing, or play a lead part, etc., and lose their concentration on listening--especially to the bassist. Develop some drills with the bassist to expose these flaws in timekeeping.

[Mike Bunting]

Can't remember the source, but I heard of a prominent Jazz bassist and a drummer who would get together solely to work on their time, grove and cohesion. I think it may have been Mingus' players or Monk's. Don't hold me to it though, maybe I'll get on the Googler to find out

[catmandu2]

Can't remember the source, but I heard of a prominent Jazz bassist and a drummer who would get together solely to work on their time, grove and cohesion. I think it may have been Mingus' players or Monk's. Don't hold me to it though, maybe I'll get on the Googler to find out

Not uncommon for rhythm section players to rehearse together independent of the melody players. But in a bluegrass band, everyone should have a strong rhythmic sense--and participate in driving the rhythm. In other words, each player is actually a part of the rhythm section to greater or lesser extent at any given time in the music--and each player should really be able to supply a rhythmic foundation for the others to follow; especially, since it seems that the bass can't be heard in the mix 50% of the time!

[grassrootphilosopher]

Another way to put it is if the bass player and/or guitar player have bad time, no mandolin player can save them.

If their time is so bad they can't play to a click, why would they be able to play to a human, unless the human is rushing/dragging with them (you know that beast, the Russian Dragon!?!)

"Listen to the bass player" is great advice IF the bass player has good time...the band is only going to be as strong, rhythmically, as it's weakest link. If the bassist is a refugee from another instrument who doesn't focus on groove too often, the whole band will wobble from that shaky foundation on up.

A band that doesn't play barn-burning tempos but that has a really tight groove is going to sound better than a band on it's collective tippytoes trying to squeeze out music as fast as they can (I speak from experience here and have the calloused tippytoes to prove it!)



If more 'unfamous' players focused on time, there'd be a lot more of that kind of musical ESP going around. I said it before and it bears repeating: one of the benefits of thinking about time feel is that it teaches you to listen outside yourself and truly become part of a greater whole in a band context.

Once again proving that your ears are ultimately your most important acquisition- not MAS or GAS, let's call it EAS (but not out loud!)

You said it so well..., well that´s why you are a teacher and I´m not.

I also found out that the simple truths, such as listening, are so difficult to follow for a large number of musicians. It´s the same with cramping up. Many musicians are playing cramped up which fouls out timing (it does other things too, but timing is the topic here). If you see someone in your band cramping up (maybe it´s you; it´s been me sometimes...) you´ll have to find out why that is, adjust the matter and witness the effect on the overall musicianship (and time).

[Dave Schimming]

I primarily play rhythm guitar & mandolin in the bluegrass band I'm in and feel that is where I can contribute the most to our overall band sound & timing, particularly since I'm not a gifted soloist. I focus on playing off the bass and let the banjo & fiddle player do their fills & leads.

[Tbone]

Can't remember the source, but I heard of a prominent Jazz bassist and a drummer who would get together solely to work on their time, grove and cohesion. I think it may have been Mingus' players or Monk's. Don't hold me to it though, maybe I'll get on the Googler to find out

That would be Oscar Peterson's rhythm section - Ray Brown on bass, but I can't remember the drummer.

I've been noticing lately that our banjo player really has a problem with rushing his solos. This causes our bass player to rush, trying to keep up, not thinking that he needs to set the pace, not respond to it. Then, his bass notes get all staccato, which sounds terrible, and causes the banjo to rush more.

It's funny, put our bass player down with a metronome (we used a click track in the studio), and he killed it.....but without one, he has absolutely no sense of groove or timing. He is the stereotypical white man, I guess. Cannot feel a groove to save his life. Can't feel the beat. It kills me.



Sorry about the rant.

[Mike Bunting]

That would be Oscar Peterson's rhythm section - Ray Brown on bass, but I can't remember the drummer.
.

I believe that Ed Thigpen was the drummer, but I'm not sure if that is the reference that I saw.

[OldSausage]

It's funny, put our bass player down with a metronome (we used a click track in the studio), and he killed it.....but without one, he has absolutely no sense of groove or timing. He is the stereotypical white man, I guess. Cannot feel a groove to save his life. Can't feel the beat. It kills me.

I have found that typically the fiddle and banjo tend to rush forward, whereas the guitar and bass have a tendency to lag behind the beat.

I guess what I've been finding is that groove and timing in the bands I play in rarely seems to be down to just one person. Most of the people I play with hold fairly steady time when playing with a metronome or when playing by themselves, but it's coordinating them together that seems to cause the problems. They can all have a groove in mind, but unless it's the same one, they are all pulling and pushing at each other. Also, I've found that switching the bass player with another, while it can help some, the basic problems of the group usually still remain.

[Explorer]

Metronomes are great, but I'm surprised that no one has brought up the other great tool which, combined with that metronome, helps diagnose problems that you can't perceive while playing.

Recording.

All my bands have recorded practice sessions. Normally folks bring their own recorder. After the directed practice, we might sit around for a while listening to see what needs to be fixed, or, if there was clearly a problem section, we can listen to it and get a handle on what went wrong.

I've been fortunate that no one has ever dug their heels in and said that they wouldn't put in the time to improve the band's timing. Since one should never pay to practice in the recording studio, it's been a stated necessity to have all timing rock solid before paying to roll tape....

[JeffD]

About the only thing you can do here is vow to make your OWN timing much better. Consistent metronome use is a good place to start.

!

Something else I found along this line.

I am used to tapping my foot. Problem is that I get lots of practice following my foot, but less practice following the rest of the folks playing.

When I play with a metronome, I try and not tap my foot and listen for the metronome. Seems to help when I then play in a band.

[mando-tech]

I chatted once with Mike Marshall about getting students to use their metronomes. He commiserated with me as to how difficult that was, saying he had a bunch of students who wanted to play like Thile, not getting that Thile doesn't practice at all without a metronome. It is easier to find a groove if everyone plays in time. Remember the five T's.

...if any member of my band, brought a metronome to a rehearsal he would be a candidate for tarring and feathering ! I would say forget the metronome idea !,...if one is needed you may be due some serious re-considerations ! Most bands, I would say, have a tendency to reduce the tempo shortly after a song is kicked off !..-this is regrettable,...the blame can easily fall on the guitar and/or the bass !...sometimes such is an indication of either or both not having familiarized themselves with the dynamics of the music in general !

[Mandoplumb]

I agree with mango- tech. If you need the metronome when practicing your part use it but it is too mechanical sounding for a band to play to a click, timing must drive, swing whatever you call it. Anyone tried to set a metronome to a recording of a good bluegrass band or jazz or blues or any thing beyond elevator music? Yes a bands timing must be together, should end at the same relative speed they started but not the mechanacal sound of a metronome.