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Thread: Luthier School

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    Registered User pwkellar's Avatar
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    Default Luthier School

    I am interested in mandolin making and acoustic steel string guitar construction. I would like to serve an apprenticeship to fully take in all the intricacies of the craft. Many of the schools I've found are violin and/or guitar exclusively, very few cater to mandolins as well. I would like to stay in close proximity if at all possible (Indiana). Anyone have any suggestions/recommendations? Thanks gang!

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    No specific recommendations, but what you want from a school or any other educational arrangement is a good background in the basics of lutherie, so while I don't know of any schools that are specific to mandolin building, that's OK, because the basics of lutherie can be learned just as well building guitars, violins or whatever. Choose a school or a mentor according to proximity, quality, reputation, whatever is important, but don't worry if you're not starting right out on mandolins, the skills that you'll learn will transfer when you start into mandolins.

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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Check out the Roberto Venn School of Lutherie in Tempe, AZ. I lecture there a couple of times a year, and two out of three of the luthiers working for me came out of that program. The've got hundreds of graduates scattered into most of the boutique guitar building companies in the US and many in the larger factories as well.

    The more you put into getting ready to go there, the more you'll get out. Do your homework first...

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    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    My friend Glenn R. Stephens of Fredericksburg, TX was trained at the Chicago Violin School http://www.csvm.org/
    He can repair and make just about anything. His violins sell for 10K and up and he does make mandolins occasionally. He was the chief luthier at Dollywood for about 2 years and says that experience was most valuable. He saw more quality instruments there than most repairmen see in their lifetime. It taught him a great deal. No substitute for experience on top of good training.
    Jammin' south of the river
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    iii mandolin Geoff B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Red Rocks Community College in Lakewood, CO (I know... not close) offers classes in steel string guitar, classical and flamenco guitar, mandolin, archtop guitar, electric guitar, violin and repair. As Rick said, lots of those skills transfer over from one to the other, so just getting started on anything accessible is a good idea. Reading is a good way to prep your head for all the new information. Of course having someone to guide you is the next step and i wish you luck on your search.

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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Develop your skills at using and maintaining the tools. Scrapers, chisels, knives, planes, etc. and get a lot of practice.

    Focus on SHOP SAFETY because otherwise you will have problems that could end a career.

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    Registered User Jimmy Kittle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Check this link out. It's about 3 hours North of Indiana. Brian builds some great guitars and is a great teacher.

    http://www.galloupguitars.com/school/index.htm

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    Default Re: Luthier School

    There is a building school in Redwing, Minnesota. Very good school
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Registered User jim_n_virginia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Seems to me most of the great luthiers I have know in my life all either learned on their own or apprenticed with someone.

    With what is on the web today it is a lot easier to learn on your own now than say even 10 years ago.

    But I guess also going to a school will give someone credentials.

    The few Luthiers I personally know most of them worked in a violin shop at some point in their life. Seems natural to me.

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    Registered User jim_n_virginia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Turner View Post
    Check out the Roberto Venn School of Lutherie in Tempe, AZ.

    Definitely some great guitar builders came out of there and continue to this day but have you checked out the tution? WHOA MAN! Be prepared to sell off a few mandolin to go there! LOL!

    Also I believe they don't (or didn't have when I checked) tuition assistance. It was cash up front ... and lots of it!

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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Have you looked at college tuition these days?

    If you want to learn a trade, you're going to have to pay one way or another. Or maybe you think that lutherie can be learned in the time it takes a Starbucks barrista to get good at pulling espresso shots...

    Not!

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    Default Re: Luthier School

    My co-builder, Jenny, took the six-month course at the Galloup School two years ago, and she found it excellent. She looked forward to classes each day and came home with an electric guitar, an archtop guitar, an acoustic bass guitar, and a classic guitar---all very well done. No mandolin content but much basic luthiery. She advises that anyone going to a luthiery school should realize that every course of instruction has its limitations and prejudices, and every student should realize there are other ways to do things and make up his or her own mind as to the best way.
    Rolfe Gerhardt

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by jim_n_virginia View Post
    Seems to me most of the great luthiers I have know in my life all either learned on their own or apprenticed with someone.
    Apprenticeships are hard to find, expensive, and time consuming, but they are a good learning experience...if the "master craftsman" is a good builder and a good teacher.

    Many of us did learn mostly on our own, but it's a slow process filled with wheel re-inventions, and is mostly trial and error. The money spent on training can save a lot of time in the learning process, and if time is, in fact, money...

    Rolfe, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the afore mentioned Jenny started as an apprentice at Phoenix mandolins and has now moved on to being "co-builder". I believe I met her a few years ago(?).

  14. #14
    Registered User pwkellar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    All of you are most helpful!
    I have to say I am somewhat deterred from "schools" for the simple fact you are force fed a lot all at once and there would be no way to learn everything you need to know (Besides the fact the tuition is crazy!).
    Contrastingly, the apprenticeship would be a more intimate learning process. It would take longer but it seems you'd retain more of the pertinent information. I went through a 5 year electrical apprenticeship and know leaps and bounds more than some "self taught" sparkies I've run into. It's all in how you go about getting the information, then deciding how to use it. But what information do you really need and who's full of ####? Too bad there's not a union luthier's apprenticeship! So many questions...so little time. Where's OB1 when you need him?
    This feeling that I need to do something with this hasn't gone away, I'm sure it's not going to. I'm very detailed oriented and am good with my hands and know I could make some great instruments, but can't decide which way to run. Many would say just start doing anything because it will apply; however, I also don't want to waste precious time that could have been better spent.

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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Apprentices without any training aren't worth minimum wage in my shop.

    Tuition for lutherie school isn't any more crazy than getting a four year college education to be an unemployed Bachelor of Arts. Do you think the cost of a four year college is crazy? BTW, one of the worst employees I ever had got his degree in philosophy in the UC system. He came out of that about $25,000.00 in debt and was pissed off that the world didn't have any jobs for a 25 year old philosopher...

    At this point, I wouldn't consider hiring anyone who didn't come out of a lutherie school unless they had equivalent learning and training. I don't have time for beginners who don't know a nut from a saddle, can't make either, and don't know how to change a band saw blade or adjust a jointer, much less work safely on a table saw, router, or over-arm pin router.

    If you want to apprentice, then expect to work for free until you're worth something. If you've got no woodworking background and no lutherie experience, you'd better be good at sweeping floors and observing.

  16. #16
    Registered User Yellowmandolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuner View Post
    Check this link out. It's about 3 hours North of Indiana. Brian builds some great guitars and is a great teacher.

    http://www.galloupguitars.com/school/index.htm

    I'm not so sure Bryan is a good teacher. I went to his 6 month program and saw him a handful of times, mostly when he was yelling at someone. On the other hand, the guy who actually teaches the program, Russ Olmstead, is pretty cool!

    YMMV

    And to the OP, I was in a similar situation as you a couple years ago. I knew there was no way a builder would take me as an apprentice as is, so I got some training. I was able to get an apprenticeship (2 years, unpaid) and am in the middle of it now learning more than I ever have in my life. I know I'm really lucky to be in the situation I'm in and know several folks from Bryan's that have done absolutely nothing with their training. I guess I don't really have much in the way of advise, just letting you know my experience...
    Last edited by Yellowmandolin; Apr-16-2009 at 9:31pm. Reason: responding to OP
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    PWKELLAR,
    I did get your PM and forgot to respond. My apologies. I would contact Tom Sparks who runs the violin shop at IU. I believe you can take his class without being an enrolled student. His wife screens his emails and he doesn't hand out his phone number so you have to reach him through IU. If you have time to kill, I'd just run down there to the violin shop. On your way, it might be wise to stop in at Bruce Taggarts place and talk with him. He is just outside Nashville. If you need help email me. Even if you don't go to IU he is a good person to know as he has connections with quite a few schools. Tom and I sail together and worst comes to worst we'll just line you up as crew.

  18. #18
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Rick, I know you can only really speak for yourself, but what's the job market like for wannabe luthiers in today's economy? If I were to go to RV and do well, do you get the feeling people are still hiring? Or are people talking downsizing/layoffs? Is there a glut of people coming out of these schools?

  19. #19
    Registered User jim_n_virginia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Turner View Post
    Have you looked at college tuition these days?

    If you want to learn a trade, you're going to have to pay one way or another.
    Thats not true. You can learn on your own or apprentice for someone in which case YOU'LL get paid for learning the trade



    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Turner View Post
    Or maybe you think that lutherie can be learned in the time it takes a Starbucks barrista to get good at pulling espresso shots...

    Not!
    WHAT are you talking about?? And no need to get defensive. I didn't insinuate that lutherie was simple and easy to learn. I said that many of the great ones learned on their own.

    I was a carpenter in my younger days. I can build a house from the foundation to the roof. I didn't go to "carpenter school" even thought there ARE carpenter schools. I learned on the job and when I did it I was good at it.

    It costs $10,000.00 dollars not including the cost of the student's tools or materials for student instruments to go to the Roberto Venn school for 5 months. How many guitars are you going to build in that time?

    No matter how you look at it thats a LOT of money for that short of a time? And is it possible to learn ANY craft in 5 short months? As you would say ... NOT!!

    I am not trying to discourage anyone from going to a school because there ARE benefits to going to a school like that but I personally think that finding someone who would take you under their wing on an apprenticeship arrangement would be more benificial.

  20. #20
    Registered User jim_n_virginia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Turner View Post
    Apprentices without any training aren't worth minimum wage in my shop.
    What Lutherie School did you go to Rick?

    I just read your bio and it seems like to me you learned from the school of hard knocks. YOU learned from on the job experience so why would you hold it against someone who was trying to do that same thing?

    I think you have forgotten what it's like to be new and starting out.

    I have had many people work for me including helpers and apprentices and I would pay anyone at least minimum wage and many times more if someone was eager, smart and responsible.

  21. #21
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Before I knew her, my "significant other" served an apprenticeship with John Monteleone. She payed something like $3000 and did grunt work much of the time, but she has a gorgeous blond A-style mandolin to show for the experience. That may sound like a pretty good deal with today's mandolin prices, but back then $3000 for a mandolin was unheard of. Now days, $10,000 mandolins are fairly common. $10,000 for 5 "short" months sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

  22. #22
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Uh.. No offense.. But do paid apprenticeships in lutherie actually exist today? If so, where?

    I've asked several in my area, and while they proudly proclaim how they were apprentices-to-so-and-so in their younger days ('60s), none of them were interested in taking one on. And even if they were, there was certainly no inkling there would be any payment.

    Waitaminute.. Was I supposed to wait outside their door for days a la Fight Club?

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    What one gets out of an education is directly related to the energy and desire they put into it. There are a few shops that have standing orders for the better candidates that pass through the schools, so, there are some jobs out there, well, there WERE.

    If a person really wants to learn to be a good luthier it is quite possible these days, with the advent of the internet, to devour volumes of information that would take years to encounter in a shop. Learn to access the pertinent information and start doing repairs on lesser instruments until you have gained the skill to take on better instruments. You will find that better instruments are USUALLY easier to work on than cheap ones, but they all help pay the bills. Treat this as a hobby until you can justify "going pro". This way you can learn on the job and progress as quickly as you can manage. Like I said, you get out of it what you put into it. You will find other luthiers out there vying for some of the same customers, it's a competitive world and becoming more so every day.

    If you want to be a luthier you will most likely have to make your own job, as many of us have done. You will get to learn about business, bookkeeping, taxes, insurance, advertising, and lots of other exciting areas. If you want to be a luthier, just be one. Get on it and get 'er done. It is a lot of work, and if you love the work it will be a good life.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lewis View Post
    If you want to be a luthier you will most likely have to make your own job, as many of us have done. You will get to learn about business, bookkeeping, taxes, insurance, advertising, and lots of other exciting areas. If you want to be a luthier, just be one. Get on it and get 'er done. It is a lot of work, and if you love the work it will be a good life.
    A few semesters of business classes would not be amiss. Most luthiers struggle more for lack of business sense than for business, at least as far as repair work is concerned. There's always repairs to be made. (Selling instruments you've made is an even more difficult task. For every person who makes it, there are probably twenty who don't.) Learn some accounting, marketing, and get a handle on what the costs of making an instrument really are. There's SO much more than just what the wood and tuners cost.
    Don Williams

  25. #25

    Default Re: Luthier School

    As Michael says, treat it as a hobby. In other words, don't quit your day job. I went to the first class at Red Wing back in ought seventies and it was violin family instruments only. It didn't take me long to change that! Two years later they were building guitars on my program. I hear it's a very good school these days, with students repairing everything from ukes to basses and building guitars and mandolins.
    I don't know any builders that would take someone off the street and pay them to apprentice. An apprentice in my book is someone that has already gone to school.
    I learned the hard way by reading books (that's about all there was in the '70's) and trial and error. I had already built guitars when I enrolled in Red Wing. Now days, you can find just about all the info you need right here on Cafe if you look, and from other Luthier websites. It's just amazing that you can even buy a video, or better than that there are lots of tutorials on Yootube.
    My suggestion is to just take your time, look around and learn. No rush, you ain't gonna make millions anyway...

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