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Thread: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Café brothers and sisters, my pal Bob sent me an email trying to sort out how to deal with minor key progressions in jazz improv. I thought I'd share with anyone interested:

    I'm trying to get a handle on the minor scale. I understand the
    diatonic major scale, but the minor scale makes me cross eyed. I look
    at my theory books but I can't make sense of it. I'd like to
    understand the diatonic scale in the minor mode, if that makes sense.

    So I looked through my theory books, and I get this for the harmonic
    minor scale-

    Cm(maj7) what the hell is that? - Cm6 - D half dim. 7 - Ebmaj7#5
    (what is that!) - Fm7 - G7b9 - Abmaj7 - B dim 7

    Can you help me make sense of this minor diatonic scale - perhaps I'm
    not using the right language, but you must know what I'm getting at -
    I want to know the chords in the whole scale range - just like in the
    major diatonic scale.
    You are confused because it is confusing!

    There's no single "the" minor scale. Whichever minor scale or mode is being used is contextual, so you'd have to look at the melody notes (if any) or progression to figure out what to do (ah, chord tones as always as starters!)

    So, the choices (in the mainstream of most often used sounds) are

    Natural minor (the aeolian mode)- 12b345b6b7-(b3 b6 b7 being the characteristic notes)
    Melodic minor- 12b34567 (b3 with natural 6 and 7)
    Harmonic minor (12b345b6 7) (b6/natural7 and the telltale minor 3rd between them).

    As you suspect, the payoff for the minor ii V (iim7b5 to V7b9) is indeed the harmonic minor scale.

    Now, the way it works is:

    Dm7b5 G7b9 ('the' minor 2-5) comes from C harmonic minor, you can build the chords and tensions from the scale and all notes sound fine against the chords.

    When you resolve to an actual Cm7 as the I chord (or Cm6 in Djangoland), you want to lose the b6 of harmonic minor, and depending of the mood, choose your mode of choice (or don't worry about WHAT mode, find the melody notes you like)- because on that I chord you may like a natural 6, which could be C melodic minor OR C dorian, or a b6 which could be C natural minor, OR indeed you may like the angular sound of the C harmonic minor.

    Lots of choices but take heart, if you play 'inside' the choices are finite, and all the action happens making choices between b6/6/b7/7.

    That ii v is the bread and butter of the 'minor sound' for trad jazz (late swing-bebop).

    As for the other harm chords like bIIImaj7#5- yes, you go 'yikes' because it doesn't appear in jazz literature until the 60's with Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock (whoa, something a half century old is new fangled in this tradition!)...in C the notes are Eb G B D.

    Played by itself it sounds cool and crazy.

    • Put an F in the bass and you have b7 9 #11 13 of an F7(9 #11 13) chord- the lydian b7 chord.

    • Put a C in the bass and it's an awesome James Bond sounding Cm(maj7 9). That's the 'what the hell is that' one chord, it is dissonant and not used a lot in older styles (but it can be the 2nd chord in the Ellington classic "In a Sentimental Mood"), but all over the place in later jazz.

    • Put a B in the bass and it's 3 #5 1 #9 of B7(#9 #5).

    In extended harmony, no chord is an island- many extended chords are a combination of two seemingly simple chords- even Cmaj7 is a C triad on the bottom and an Em triad on top. If you get that, you can spy these 'combo platters' all over jazz harmony, and it simplifies things greatly and leads to more clarity when you solo- it's all good!

    As always, knowing the chords of the scale will lead you to good things improvisationally when you want to leave the outline concept behind, and outline OTHER chords against the actual chord of the moment- like in the above, where you'd arpeggiate that Ebmaj7#5 over F7 or Cm.

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Good stuff John, thanks for the posting.

    I transcribe a lot of bebop/hard bop type players from the 40s and 50s (Bird, Clifford, Cannonball, Coltrane, etc). While I occasionally hear the harmonic minor played over minor II V I, I hear this a LOT on minor II V I:

    Locrian #2 (the VI mode of Melodic Minor) on the II
    Diminished Whole Tone or altered (VII mode of Melodic Minor) on the V
    Melodic Minor on the I

    This is three different Melodic Minor scales on the minor II V I. Mark Levine discusses this in his "Jazz Theory" book starting on page 75.
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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    Good stuff John, thanks for the posting.

    I transcribe a lot of bebop/hard bop type players from the 40s and 50s (Bird, Clifford, Cannonball, Coltrane, etc). While I occasionally hear the harmonic minor played over minor II V I, I hear this a LOT on minor II V I:

    Locrian #2 (the VI mode of Melodic Minor) on the II
    Diminished Whole Tone or altered (VII mode of Melodic Minor) on the V
    Melodic Minor on the I

    This is three different Melodic Minor scales on the minor II V I. Mark Levine discusses this in his "Jazz Theory" book starting on page 75.
    Thanks Pete!

    From Bird 1945 to Cannonball/Coltrane 1959 is a huge development. I haven't heard a ton of altered scale stuff from Bird until pretty late in his recording career- lots of melodic b5's but not so much the surrounding altered scale; a bit from Dizzy, a lot from Bud Powell, but it seems to be commonplace by the Clifford Brown zone of the mid 50's. That harmonic minor modal stuff happens more frequently in Bird's solos IMHO (the one's I've transcribed or studied, which is not exhaustive!).

    The locrian natural 2 kind of sets up a natural 13b9 sound on the subsequent V- another way to see it would be the harmonic major scale of the target I (12345b67) which gives you (on that V7) a G7 b9 13 sound like the diminished 1/2 whole would, but other changes (All spellings enharmonic to fit the chord symbol):

    G7b9 13 (C harm major) G Ab B C D E F (1 b9 3 4 5 6 b7)
    G7b9 13 (1/2/w diminished) G Ab Bb B C# D E F (1 b9 #9 3 #4 5 6 b7)

    choice #2 might sound a little more angular due to the #4 (#11). It's all good! They set up the expectation of resolving to a I major since they broadcast the major 3rd of that chord- but can resolve 'deceptively' to minor as well.

    The altered scale messes with the basic DNA of the G7 since there is no 5th at all (from Ab melodic minor):

    G7b9/#9/b5/#5 or "alt": G Ab Bb B Db Eb F ( 1 b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7).

    "If it ain't broke, break it!"
    Last edited by John McGann; Mar-02-2009 at 12:38pm. Reason: spellingg.

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    You're very correct John, at least in what I've transcribed, Bird didn't use it much. Clifford, however, seemed to be his favorite way of going through things (of the 40 or so solos I've transcribed so far).

    An interesting observation I noticed in a Freddie Hubbard (don't remember the tune, I'll have to look through my notebooks) solo was this over a Bm7b5 E7b9 Am7b5 Dalt GmMaj7 progression. Harmonic minor over the Bm7b5 E7b9 chords and melodic minor over the last 3 chords. It sounds great. Proves there is no "correct" answer, just let your ear be the guide.

    Ain't Jazz fun??!!
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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    There are so many incredibly rich areas/eras of jazz to enjoy...I am also very fond of Clifford Brown, just an amazing talent, and so sad that he passed so early- 23? I could barely hold a pick at age 23 (actually I am still trying to find out which end goes where)...and I'm with you in terms of transcribing- there are already books out there, which can be great for teaching or practicing reading, but I find the best way to assimilate and learn is by ear-direct to disc, so to speak. When you DIY you get things that you just can't get otherwise...

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    Chief Moderator/Shepherd Ted Eschliman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Ah minor keys... Never hurts to remind students why they call it music "theory," not music science.
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    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Eschliman View Post
    Ah minor keys... Never hurts to remind students why they call it music "theory," not music science.
    It only hurts when the band is playing Am7b5 Dalt GmMaj7 and the soloist plays G Melodic Minor instead of G Harmonic Minor... Ouch! The 6 and the b6 both... On the other hand in context it might be sounding like a 'blue' note of some kind. I need to hear it.

    Or is it just possible its... A mistake?






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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Great thread guys! Very beautiful contributions here. This is a very tough area for most folks to get a handle on.

    A few thoughts....

    The number of mandolinists in the world who are able to really explain, let alone fluidly use, this vocabulary in an improvisational jazz context is, I’d venture, stunningly small — perhaps down into the single digits. Fully exploring the ramifications of what John and Pete have written so far could keep most mandolinists busy for a very long time.

    In my experience of working with musicians who are transitioning from a bluegrass or folk background into learning some jazz vocabulary, if these folks have one single chordal weak spot, it’s playing and playing over minor seven flat five chords (i.e. half diminished chords).

    These days there are tons of resources available. One online link I just found is: http://www.jazzguitar.be/half_diminished_chords.html

    It’s easy to glaze over on the minutia of minor scales: their various names and permutations. I’d reiterate John’s suggestion “....all the action happens making choices between b6/6/b7/7.”

    For Dmin7b5:
    C harmonic minor scale is your friend.
    so is the locrian mode (Eb major scale)
    ascending melodic minor scale based on F (DEFGAbBbC) — this gives you the very hip E note
    or play all your Bb9 licks

    I also really love C harmonic minor scale with the flat seventh interval (Bb) added — which gives on the effect of G7#9 when you move to the V7 chord (G).

    So many ways to approach this.... Yes, it’s stunning how music from the 1940s and 1950s can be new territory for the mandolin. The Clifford Brown/Max Roach recordings still sound so fresh and wonderful — great arrangements, composing and playing.

    All the best,

    Paul Glasse
    Austin, Texas

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Paul, thanks to the work of people like yourself, Don, Will Patton, Ted E, Tiny, Jethro, Dawg, Jamie M. and many others, more people are getting these sounds in their ears via great mandolin playing. There's a strong (if not universal) interest in jazz mandolin at Berklee, and great players with strong roots in bluegrass like Jake Jolliff are exploring the jazz vocabulary and doing great things expanding their horizons.

    We can also thank guys like Groveland, Niles, Pete Martin, Shelby Eicher and several other regulars (forgive me for not naming everyone!) on the Café for contributing helpful improvisational theory perspectives as well.

    I think there are some excellent jazz mandolinists out there under the radar, and hopefully there will be a new generation cropping up over the next decade or so. There are bound to be some great mainstream players, as well as those who will forge some new hybrids.

    Now I should shut up and practice my lick

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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    So how would you treat a One-SIX-Two-Five progression in minor, given the three types of minor scales? The way I learned it(pre-internet, perhaps from the back of a cereal box or the inside cover of 'Police Gazette'),the common denominator becomes the iim7b5-V7alt-i progression. But then in my next MM column I was trying to spin out some longer lines...Vi-ii-V-I, etc...In Cminor, the chord in the six position can be either Ab or Am7b5. Seems to me we almost never see it as Ab in jazz tunes so I went with the A half-diminished. Any further clarification would be greatly appreciated, and yes, this a very helpful thread. I love all you guys!

    Paul, I've always wondered how you finger half-diminished chords. I seem to use only one voicing, I bet you'd have dozens more...?

    Pete Martin, I don't know if I'd have mentioned all those transcriptions! You're going to have people bugging you to bundle them up and send them out. Like me, for instance...

    Johnny McGann The Red Sox Fan: Thanks a million for kicking this one off. So helpful.

    After reading this yesterday I got in the car and heard a track that brought a lot of these concepts into my ear. It was called "One For Daddy-O" by Cannonball Adderley, a beautiful minor blues. Even on a relatively simple progression in minor, when everything is treated properly, the solos become very speechlike. Or at least Cannon's did. His stuff will knock you down ,it's so good.

    Lest we forget, the richest sounding tunes contain many tonalities: major, minor, and others. So getting a handle on these concepts is essential and that's why I'm so grateful for the concise information freely given above. It's like a college education in just a few paragraphs!

    A tune like Autumn Leaves is essentially in a major key and it's relative minor. If you can play lines in both major and minor that correspond to full cadences in each, you're basically there.

    I enjoy inserting the m7b5 sound into progressions even if it's not called for by the progression.
    Summertime would be one example, or Minor Swing, or Moondance even. You can even two-five your way toward the Em in Foggy Mountain Breakdown I suppose...

    Thanks again,eagerly awaiting further contributions to this thread.

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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    John McGann wrote:

    I think there are some excellent jazz mandolinists out there under the radar, and hopefully there will be a new generation cropping up over the next decade or so.
    I'm sure you're right. I look forward to hearing them. In the meantime, thanks for (among other things) helping to bring this kind of knowledge to the next generation up at Berkeley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    So how would you treat a One-SIX-Two-Five progression in minor, given the three types of minor scales? ...(snip)...In Cminor, the chord in the six position can be either Ab or Am7b5. Seems to me we almost never see it as Ab in jazz tunes so I went with the A half-diminished.
    I would always treat that VI chord in minor keys as a m7b5 based on the major VI interval -- so in C minor, yes, Am7b5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    Paul, I've always wondered how you finger half-diminished chords. I seem to use only one voicing, I bet you'd have dozens more...?
    Here are some position options (listed as fret #'s GDAE strings):

    3253 = E half-diminished (or C9 no root, or Gm6)
    4355 = B half-diminished
    3343 = G half-diminished

    used less frequently but still there are:

    5354 = D half-diminished
    3541 = G half-diminished

    As indicated in the first example, these all work as 9th and m6 chords, though sometimes the inversions are undesireable for one or more of the functions.

    For all of these half-diminished chords I like to see which dominant seventh chords they resolve to -- i.e. lower the flat five and flat seven of each chord to make the dominant seventh chord a fourth above.

    Yes, Pete, I'd love a copy of those transcriptions too.

    Don, I totally agree with you about Cannonball Adderley. I've always been particularly knocked out by his sense of time -- even ignoring his awesome pitch choices, he just swings like crazy; take away the whole band and he would still be swinging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    A tune like Autumn Leaves is essentially in a major key and it's relative minor. If you can play lines in both major and minor that correspond to full cadences in each, you're basically there.
    Your comment reminded me of an amazing video where the late Ted Greene gives a demo/seminar and does mind-blowing stuff with Autumn Leaves. Clips are available on YouTube and Google Video. If you've got time catch the whole thing at:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...e+guitar&hl=en

    Thanks again for all the excellent contributions.

    Paul Glasse
    Austin, Texas
    Last edited by pglasse; Mar-03-2009 at 1:03pm.

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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    I have the hardest time remembering the inversions of half-diminished chords. Whereas one typically refers to an inversion by the note that is in the bass, I flip that around in my head when I think of mandolin chords since someone else is handling the bass and I'm often more concerned with what the highest note is (in order to play chords and melody at the same time).

    So I will often take a half-diminished chord and go through the inversions (according to the top note) to try to pound it into my memory. This is what I do for an f sharp half-diminished:

    2232 - root on top

    5475 - third on top

    9798 - diminished fifth on top

    11 10 12 12 - minor seventh on top

    Whew! I hope I got that right.
    Bobby Bill

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    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Nice voicings, Bobby. As you say, usually you'll have someone else getting the root well below mandolin range. So that's an expendable note. I mostly comp using three-note voicings. And I see Paul's B half-dim suggestion lacks the root. (By the way, Paul, I think that first E half-dim should say 3253?)

    Another full voicing I like is B half-dim played 4751.

    BC

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    So how would you treat a One-SIX-Two-Five progression in minor, given the three types of minor scales? The way I learned it(pre-internet, perhaps from the back of a cereal box or the inside cover of 'Police Gazette'),the common denominator becomes the iim7b5-V7alt-i progression. But then in my next MM column I was trying to spin out some longer lines...Vi-ii-V-I, etc...In Cminor, the chord in the six position can be either Ab or Am7b5. Seems to me we almost never see it as Ab in jazz tunes so I went with the A half-diminished. Any further clarification would be greatly appreciated, and yes, this a very helpful thread. I love all you guys!
    Don, ask and you shall receive A tune with a few minor I VI II Vs

    I just posted a Cannonball Adderley transcription of his first chorus of Minority. You can download it from the home page of my web site, listed below. A disclaimer: I have rearranged small section to stay in mandolin range and to make certain horn lines playable by me. I usually transcribe as close as I can hear to how the player actually plays the solo, and then change it to make it playable by me. I can't find the original Cannonball file, so this will have to do. If I find the unaltered original, I'll post it instead.

    What scale anyone is using at a given time is up to interpretation, but the presence of E natural notes against the Dm7b5 indicates to me the F melodic minor scale. In this first chorus, there are not enough notes of the scale played to tell me what scale, if any, he was thinking against the Gm7b5. The C7 seems to be a C7 bebop scale as much as anything else.


    I'd be interested to hear how some of you guys analyze this...
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    What a cool thread - these ideas will keep me busy for a while.
    I have a coupla diminished x.5 (half diminished) chords using open type positions that I like to use from time to time for that ring-y sound:
    4-0-0-1 is a B half-dim (resolves nicely into 1-0-0-1, E7 b9) and 0-0-1-0, a Gm6 = E half dim. - This last one can be barred right up the neck.
    ... another big fan of Cannon!
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen View Post
    ...And I see Paul's B half-dim suggestion lacks the root. (By the way, Paul, I think that first E half-dim should say 3253?)
    Good catch! I've gone back and edited (fixed) my first two examples -- 2 of 3 that I use the most -- as I wrote them wrong the first time. Thanks so much for keeping me honest.

    All the best,

    Paul Glasse
    Austin, Texas

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    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    (I get it, Paul, so your B half-dim is a full voicing in fact.)

    Here's another way to organize some of this info (and keep us lower on the fretboard). The note G occurs in four half-dim chords, as root, third, fifth, or seventh. So writing Bobby's voicings all with G on top:

    3343
    3253
    4243
    2133

    And then there's the other family, the stretchier voicings:

    6883
    7873
    6973
    5763

    Chords are G half-dim, then E, C#, and A half-dim.

    BC

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    Registered User Brad Weiss's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    I'm jumping off the deep-end here, but I always like to think of chords as substitutions for one another (a Gm is a Bb6, etc) so I think a vim7b5=im6=IV9; Em7b5=Gm6=C9. Then I figure out the One of the dominant chord (C9 goes to F), and use that scale, making sure to hit the right "color" tones (the D if its a C9, the E and the Bb if its the Gm6, the Bb and the D for the Em7b5; actually the D and the Bb work all over all three nicely, sort of the heart of the chords). I never can keep modes and the minutiae of minor scales, as Paul says, straight, so I sort of reduce everything to a common denominator major scale from which I can then deviate as needed. I'm not saying it WORKS, but it's how I think of these things.

    I'm pleased to see I share the grips of Paul Glasse - so at least our fingers are in the same place!

    Thanks everybody!!

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    Chief Moderator/Shepherd Ted Eschliman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Brad brings up a very good point in that often grappling with the sophistications of chord extensions, you can simplify your options by unraveling chord commonalities. Like the fact that these three chords are actually voiced the same on the mandolin:



    Maybe a little off topic as far as concepts of minor, but more about the above here:
    Chord Commonalties: m6, m7b5, rootless 9th
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Man, my m7b5 chord voicing is more odd than I thought I guess! I use a three note voicing with no minor seventh. So Em7b5, for example, would be 3-5-7 in frets from the G string up, or b5-m3-root in intervals. I guess that's what happens when you make them up yourself. To hopefully redeem this voicing, however, follow it with an A7#5 fretted 6-5-8(C#-G-F, 3,b7,#5). That puts a nice melodic movement in the cadence: E-F-D...

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    I like to use the following rootless voicings:

    Em7b5
    355

    A7b9
    354

    Dm Maj7
    234
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    ...it's how I think of these things.
    ...you can simplify your options by unraveling chord commonalities.
    You can stretch your m7(b5) shapes a long, long way:


    Fmi6..........D F Ab C
    Dmi7(b5)......D F Ab C
    E7(#5b9)......D F Ab C (E)
    A#9(#11)......D F Ab C (E)
    Dmi9(b5)......D F Ab C (E)
    Fmi69.........D F Ab C (G)
    G7sus(b9).....D F Ab C (G)
    Dmi11(b5).....D F Ab C (E G)

    and then there's these...

    Fmi7(add 13)..D F Ab C (Eb)
    A#13..........D F Ab C (A# G)
    D7(#9#11).....D F Ab C (F#/Gb A)
    Fmi13.........D F Ab C (Bb Eb)
    G#ma13(#11)...D F Ab C (Bb Eb G)
    G#13(b5)......D F Ab C (Bb F#/Gb)
    A#13(#11).....D F Ab C (A#/Bb E G)
    G#13(#11).....D F Ab C (Bb Eb F#/Gb)

    (Forgive any enharmonic mispellings)

    Another big Cannonball fan,

    Craig

  23. #23
    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Wow yeah, Cannonball is the man- I love working out his stuff on mandolin, it's so gutsy and bluesy like "traditional mandolin playing"...

    I have the solo from "Sid's Ahead" off the 1958 "Milestones" album by Miles + co. on my website; that came out just before Kind of Blue- same band that played on Cannonball's "Something Else" record that the minor blues "One For Daddy-o" that Donny mentions above is from. It's a crazy reharmonized blues form, and Cannonball plays his arse off on it!

    Another fun and helpful thing about the minor ii V thing: Dizzy Gillespie 'didn't believe' in the iim7b5, he thought of it as IVm6:

    DFAbC= Dm7b5
    FAbCD= Fm6

    So rather than a "minor ii V" he thought "ivm6 to v7". You see that change a lot in actual fake books published in the 40's and 50's, so it was probably a common way of thinking of the change. For those of us raised on triads, the ivm6 concept can make it a little easier to access those sounds...and this way, your lines don't begin on the root of the chord- always good to shoot for 3rds anyway...Bert Ligon's "Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony" is an excellent study in this way of thinking, for the curious...

  24. #24
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    Quote Originally Posted by John McGann View Post
    ...outline OTHER chords against the actual chord of the moment- like in the above, where you'd arpeggiate that Ebmaj7#5 over F7 or Cm.
    Cool Sounds! F13(#11) = F7 + Ebma7(#5) is F G A B C D D#/Eb. Cmi9(ma7) = Cmi7 + Ebma7(#5) is C D Eb G B.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: A Minor Situation In Jazz Improvisation

    This is my first posting here. I sent the original question about the minor diatonic scale to John. I just had had a lesson with Don, and he reminded me that when I'm comping, it's easy to do walking lines, and interesting stuff just walking up or down with chords from the diatonic scale. And I get that - conceptually, I have the picture of that.

    And I'm one of those students Paul mentioned, that stumbles when I'm improvising over the minor II-V-I sequence, but I'm beginning to get that sound and have some kind of conceptual grasp of how to approach it.

    And maybe that's enough, and I should be satisfied with that, but I love the minor sound - it's so rich musically - and it's why I love the gypsy jazz genre.

    So I still find myself wanting to have a better conceptual grasp of the minor diatonic scale, and it is just so freakin' wierd. I read John's response, and I'll work through some of that, and maybe some day, I'll wake up and it will all be clear to me, and if not, I'll just give up trying to understand it, and simply enjoy playing the music.

    Thank you for this rich and informative discussion.

    Bob Althouse

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