How & where to sell 1927 F5

[1927-F5]

Sorry -- double post while I was figuring out how to upload pictures

[1927-F5]

Here are some pictures.

They're big in number of pixels, but that's the only way I know of to show the quality of the varnish, etc.

I have uploaded them as attachments in the hope that the board will only show thumbnails instead of filling your screen with the pictures. That way if you want to look at them you can, but you aren't forced to!

The view from the tailpiece shows most of the flaws:
*The ding below the bass f-hole
*How the plating is worn off the bass side and bottom of the tailpiece cover
*The rash between the treble f-hole and the binding
*The split in the treble side of the bridge (out of focus, though)

[maj34]

Oh, my. You have a dandy there.

[f5loar]

That's as good as they get. I'd contact Darryl Wolfe first.
It needs to be registered and he knows who's who. With the market kinda at a stand still at the moment this may be hard to move quickly but then again being an unknown one it could be the one a collector is looking for. I would bargin for a low commission dealer. They do wheel and deal on that % especially on high end stuff like this.
The big 3 to me is Gruhn, Elderly and Mandolin Bros. Then you go down to next run of great dealers like Larry Wexler, Mandolin Central, etc. It seems Gruhn gets a lot of high end money buyers and seems to know who to call first on something this nice. I would stay away from high end auctions.

[Fretbear]

I would also at least talk to Tony Williamson before you commit to any proposed deal for his valuable opinion on it.
He would be happy to talk to you about a '27 Fern, and could very well know someone who is interested in it.
His integrity, experience and expertise on these matters is known and trusted around the country and around the world.

http://www.mandolincentral.com/

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

I think it may be a mistake to attempt to market an instrument like this yourself, and here's why. Most anyone dropping this kind of money on an instrument wants some kind of expertise behind the sale. Quite often there can be finish issues that only very experienced folks like the top dealers (or collectors for that matter as well) can detect. I've seen too many isntruments that at first glance look "original", only to find out after expert inspection have been refinished (many years ago) or oversprayed... and the '20's Gibson mandolins are notorious for having been oversprayed at the factory to "freshen them up". Also, a reputable dealer will make sure the instrument is set up properly and playable, so the potential buyer will know what it sounds like. At current prices, sound definitely enters into the worth of the instrument. I know a lot of players and collectors of this type instrument, and I know of none that would buy it without being able to play it, unless it was a bargain basement price. Commisions are somewhat negotiable, and I suspect the fee you pay will be mostly offset by the higher dollar a top dealer can fetch for this mandolin. You may even come out ahead!

Best of luck...
Lynn

[mrmando]

Lynn raises some excellent points, particularly with regard to refinishing (can knock thousands off the value) and setup. I'm beginning to doubt the wisdom of a private sale here.

This mandolin is in amazing condition for as much as it's been played. Notice the two spots on either side of the neck, near the headstock, where the finish has been worn off. That's from your dad's left hand. I've been playing my own mandolin for 14 years and the neck isn't worn as much as that, yet my instrument on the whole is more nicked up than yours is. It's a common belief among mandolin players that the instruments sound better after having been "played in" -- but on the other hand, the better the condition, the greater the value. So you've got the best of both worlds here: an instrument that has been played a lot but has only minor wear/damage.

The neck wear suggests that it hasn't been refinished -- if it had, the refinisher would probably have done something to the neck. But it's not conclusive.

[Brad Weiss]

Those pictures just made a lot of mandolin players forget whatever else they were doing...

[1927-F5]

That's as good as they get. I'd contact Darryl Wolfe first.
It needs to be registered and he knows who's who. With the market kinda at a stand still at the moment this may be hard to move quickly but then again being an unknown one it could be the one a collector is looking for. I would bargin for a low commission dealer. They do wheel and deal on that % especially on high end stuff like this.
The big 3 to me is Gruhn, Elderly and Mandolin Bros. Then you go down to next run of great dealers like Larry Wexler, Mandolin Central, etc. It seems Gruhn gets a lot of high end money buyers and seems to know who to call first on something this nice. I would stay away from high end auctions.

I have been wondering what is the usual and customary commission for an instrument of this value. On the one hand, a dealer can cut the percentage a bit because it will still mean a lot of dollars for them, on the other, a dealer with a really good reputation and contact list can command top dollar.

It's not like real estate, where everybody already knows the "normal" commission. Or maybe it is, but I don't know the normal commission. Help me out a bit so I'm not a complete noob.

So what should I expect the commission and other charges to be?

[1927-F5]

I think it may be a mistake to attempt to market an instrument like this yourself, and here's why. Most anyone dropping this kind of money on an instrument wants some kind of expertise behind the sale. Quite often there can be finish issues that only very experienced folks like the top dealers (or collectors for that matter as well) can detect. I've seen too many isntruments that at first glance look "original", only to find out after expert inspection have been refinished (many years ago) or oversprayed... and the '20's Gibson mandolins are notorious for having been oversprayed at the factory to "freshen them up". Also, a reputable dealer will make sure the instrument is set up properly and playable, so the potential buyer will know what it sounds like. At current prices, sound definitely enters into the worth of the instrument. I know a lot of players and collectors of this type instrument, and I know of none that would buy it without being able to play it, unless it was a bargain basement price. Commisions are somewhat negotiable, and I suspect the fee you pay will be mostly offset by the higher dollar a top dealer can fetch for this mandolin. You may even come out ahead!

Best of luck...
Lynn

Hi Lynn, I agree that a buyer certainly needs to play the instrument. Pretty is nice, but it *has* to sound good! Ideally a player will buy this instrument and let its voice be heard. I hate seeing once-wonderful instruments behind glass.

I also agree that a buyer would feel more confident with a trusted dealer than buying out of someone's car trunk. A good dealer certainly brings added value to the sale. The trick is figuring out who will do the best job.

Thank you for your comments!

[1927-F5]

... Notice the two spots on either side of the neck, near the headstock, where the finish has been worn off. That's from your dad's left hand. I've been playing my own mandolin for 14 years and the neck isn't worn as much as that...

Fourteen years? You've hardly even begun! When my parents would visit Dad would play the mandolin every morning to wake us up. If we were too slug-a-bed he would play Samuel Siegel's "Boston Ideal March" -- much more effective and nicer than an alarm clock!

[mrmando]

Well, it's not my first mandolin, and not my only one either ... but it's the one I play the most. The point is, your mandolin's ratio of amount of use :: amount of wear is extremely high, and that's a good thing.

[1927-F5]

I would also at least talk to Tony Williamson before you commit to any proposed deal for his valuable opinion on it.
He would be happy to talk to you about a '27 Fern, and could very well know someone who is interested in it.
His integrity, experience and expertise on these matters is known and trusted around the country and around the world.

I took a look at his site and have mixed feelings. His pictures are barely OK (seems to be a problem with most sites), but the "price upon request" reminds me too much of rug dealers in Istanbul. It's a marketing model I am not familiar with, and not yet comfortable with.

[1927-F5]

Well, it's not my first mandolin, and not my only one either ... but it's the one I play the most. The point is, your mandolin's ratio of amount of use :: amount of wear is extremely high, and that's a good thing.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it as a put-down -- what I had meant instead was that in comparison to my father's playing mandolin for over 70 years, with only 14 years you and your instrument have many more years of enjoyment ahead of you. Now that you have pointed out it's not your first mandolin, perhaps my comment was completely misplaced. No matter -- a well-played mandolin is a joy and I wish you many more years of that joy.

And thank you for pointing out the use::wear ratio -- you and the others are helping me appreciate what a rare instrument this is.

[mandozilla]

Brad said:

"Those pictures just made a lot of mandolin players forget whatever else they were doing..."

OUCH! I just bruised the bottom of my chin when it hit the desk after viewing those pics...she sure is purdy.

I wish I had you problem/dilema...that one would cure my MAS permanently.

[mrmando]

It turns out that Gruhn has a '27 Fern for sale right now. Asking price is $125K.

Christie's, the auction house, sold one last fall for $60K. It was refinished, I believe. You see why it's important to know whether your instrument is refinished.

[Fretbear]

I took a look at his site and have mixed feelings. His pictures are barely OK (seems to be a problem with most sites), but the "price upon request" reminds me too much of rug dealers in Istanbul. It's a marketing model I am not familiar with, and not yet comfortable with.

If Tony does it that way, he must have his reasons, possibly so that his site is not just used as a cheap appraisal stop, when he will provide an expert specific appraisal for a reasonable fee. Tony personally owns a rather famous '27 Fern just like the one you have as well as his Loar and currently has a signed Loar for sale right now that is completely unique, even amongst that rare breed. Tony Williamson's expertise and honesty in the field of vintage American stringed instruments, and Gibson mandolins in particular, is a matter of record. I am not affiliated with him in any way.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Very nice mandolin you have there 1927-F5. From the photos I see no inordinate amount of wear nor signs of tampering. The assumed serial number range for this mandolin is also smack in the middle of some of the best Ferns out there too. I am personally acquainted with both 84684 and 84685

[Links]

1927-F-5 - That is indeed a beautiful instrument. I hope all of the information that you are receiving is more helpful than confusing. If I had your instrument, I can honestly say I don't know how I would attempt to sell it. I do know, that I would follow my own advice and not shop it around, as would be buyers do not like to make an offer (or be given a price), and then have it taken to others to see if a few more bucks can be obtained. You certainly seem to be a straight forward type of person and I would not expect that you would do that either. I come from an antique background (including vintage instruments) and unfortunately, I see this way too often.

Lynn D, I think is quite correct in his post. However, there is no reason that all of what he suggests cannot be done without consigning it to a reputable dealer. Someone like Gruhn can appraise it, list all condition concerns (i.e refinishing), and set it up for a reasonable fee. You should not be obligated to consign it with them. Elderly and Mandolin Brothers can do the same - as well as others.

I personally think that consigning instruments is best suited for people that do not have the time or inclination (or desire) to market it themselves. It is an excellent service for those that need it, but if you don't it is a pretty expensive proposition.

[1927-F5]

Very nice mandolin you have there 1927-F5. From the photos I see no inordinate amount of wear nor signs of tampering. The assumed serial number range for this mandolin is also smack in the middle of some of the best Ferns out there too. I am personally acquainted with both 84684 and 84685

So what do you think of 84684 and 84685? Especially how well they play -- their tonality and color.

Thanks!

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

I think one of the questions 1927-F5 has asked and not had a response to is the commission fee from a reputable dealer. In my experience, I've found them to range from 10 - 25%, depending on the dealer. There's no reason on an instrument of this price that you couldn't expect to consign at right around 10%. As for Gruhn doing the set-up work, I don't beleive his shop does work on anything outside of what will be sold in his shop. Don't know about the other dealers, but there are a number of places you can get good set-up work.

Lynn

[1927-F5]

... In my experience, I've found them to range from 10 - 25%, depending on the dealer. There's no reason on an instrument of this price that you couldn't expect to consign at right around 10%. ...

Thank you, Lynn!

[Links]

Neither Lynn nor Darryl have offered to help, but if it were mine both of them would be at the top of the list. They may not be interested, and certainly are gentlemen enough not to try and use this or any other forum to try and insert themselves into that position - so I will!

[MikeEdgerton]

Look at this objectively, if you consign it to one of the major players they will do the setup. They won't be able to sell it if it doesn't play well and they are going to want to put their best foot foreward. They want to sell it because they are going to make money on it. Don't get sidetracked looking for a setup.

[1927-F5]

It appears to me there are three important aspects to selling this instrument:

1. Getting an accurate assessment of its condition from someone whose opinion is widely accepted.

2. Getting the instrument prepped for sale -- at a minimum setting it up with new strings and adjusting, if necessary, the action.

3. Selling it through a credible organization that potential buyers look to for depth and experience in handling instruments of this type. Also, the sales venue needs to have contacts with as many of the potential buyers as possible.

Is it best to try to get all three from the same place, or does it make sense to have a top "outside" appraiser look the instrument over, and then place it for sale with the top sales organization? Or is that asking for trouble?

Thanks!