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Thread: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

  1. #26
    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    Foldedpath wrote, "Somewhere I read about a tuning John Doyle has used occasionally for ITM backing on guitar, when he's not doing his regular Drop-D thing. It's a bit similar to the one posted here. He tunes the guitar B-E-B-F#-B-F#, then capos up three frets, and you end up in D-G-D-A-D-A. "

    I heard John Doyle talk about this tuning in a workshop a couple of years ago. He said that he felt that it was better for song accompaniment, as opposed to -tune- accompaniment. He mentioned that he moved the capo more in this tuning (as he hardly uses one any more for tunes, it seems, at least not with Liz Carroll), to match the song keys and/or the singer's voice. He also said that his own voice seems to like F and C.

    I tried his tuning on my Santa Cruz OM and on a jumbo Greven guitar, and for me it -only- worked with a capo. As you mentioned, that low B is -low, loose and floppy and w/o doing a full setup to accomodate it, I don't think it would work at its best.

    I belive that Doyle keeps his Fylde guitar in this tuning, so I'd expect that he's got that all dialed
    in with a setup and gaugest that work.


    A friend here has a wonderful Gibson guitar from the '20's and he tunes it DGDADD, with the Irish zouk tuning in the middle and D's on the high and low strings. It would be interesting to capo this
    (I think), but he likes to play it as a single-string zouk with drones on the edges and rarely uses
    the high and low Ds otherwise.

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  2. #27
    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    In the above, I meant "Santa Cruz OM" to refer to an "Orchestra Model" guitar, not an Octave Mandolin.

    Sorry if I've created any confusion with that.

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  3. #28
    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    Quote Originally Posted by groveland View Post
    Here's NST applied to good ol' Um A Zero. I pretty much duplicated John Pearse 150 New Standard and just get as big a C string as I can. This clip is done with .011, .013, .022w, .032w, .046w, .056w because that's the best they could do at the local GC.
    Cool! It sounds a bit like the range of the 7 string guitar that is popular in Brazil, with that fat low end...

  4. #29
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    A friend of mine, mostly a fiddle/mandolin/octave mando player, is looking for a six-string fifthstuning he can use on guitar, so he can experiment more with fingerpicking and also accompanying. He's been using five strings CGdae'. I suggested he try one re-entrant high string at the bottom: c'CGdae'. All his chords would finger the 6th string as the
    5th, but he could get closer voicings, plus he'd have the option of banjo-style rolls and, if he worked with it, campanella-style melodic stuff, like 5-string banjo or Baroque guitar. And he could start with a standard guitar set, putting the second string on the bottom.

    I wonder about that high g' string. Not only does it break the pattern, but I think you'd bust a lot of them at guitar length.

    Anyone tried my idea?
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  5. #30
    Is there a "talent" knob? taboot's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    This reminds me: I believe David Tiller of Taarka used to play a six string guitar scale instrument that was tuned CGDAEB, with the B string pitched below the E. I never talked to him extensively about it, but do recall him saying he liked the chord voicings it led him towards.

    On a side note, Taarka is worth checking out for anyone that hasn't already. Their skills, ability and taste far exceed their name recognition.

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  6. #31

    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    Since this thread comes closest to talking about my current experiment, I'll just give it a quick bump.

    I've found a source for strings which claim to be tunable to B4 at a 25.5" scale length. As to whether or not that's true, I'll find out soon enough. *laugh*

    Having been living in the area where Fripp first started the Culty Guitarist thing, I was aware of the tuning from the start, and having been a mandolin/mandola players, I had worked on an all-fifths tuning for guitar. I had tuned down to accommodate a high G4, but the open string pitches were funky. I also tried F1-C2-G2-D3-A3-E4, but didn't like the results too much tonewise. (It never occurred to me to try a re-entrant B3 (C2-G2-D3-A3-E4-B3), which is a really cool idea which I might try in the future.)

    I recently had a conversation at a Crafty Guitar circle, and the leader of the group had told me that having the high G4 was superior to all fifths, because of the sympathetic resonances. I mused that the standard Craft repertoire was mostly based on odd intervals, and that it didn't leverage those resonances; shouldn't DADGAD be used if that were the focus?

    ----

    I do remember having some conversations with Fripp at the time, and asking him about his claim that great music only came about from group play. I thought it was interesting that this sidelined the Toccata and Fugue in D minor, which didn't fit his definition.

    What is most telling to me is that the core of Guitar Craft is based on Frippian intervallic/chordal ideas, instead of drawing on a wide range of disciplines. Is it possible that there is not more to learn from the centuries of fifth tuned instrumental study, instead of the work of just one person? If I were going to choose just one source for fifth-tuned harmonic ideas, why wouldn't it be Bach, with his works for unaccompanied violin and cello? As it seems that Fripp's playing is stamped on the core of Guitar Craft, it's hard to know what is being incorporated into that Craft besides the views of the founder.

    Anyway, I'll be posting about my experiment over in the CBOM section. Nice to meet (read) you all.

    Cheers!
    Playing a hexed Eastman 614 oval-hole with scroll (hoodooed with MandoVoodoo!), a Flatiron 1SH mandola (original owner), a McNally Ukulele Strumstick in CGDA mandola tuning, a McNally 4-string Chromatic Strumstick in GDAE octave mandolin tuning, and rocking my six-course, unison-tuned 12-string Ovation mandophone/extended cittern in CGDAEB Full Fifths Tuning...

  7. #32
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    <post self-moderated for tone>
    Last edited by groveland; Apr-26-2009 at 7:43pm.

  8. #33
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    I launched into a diatribe above. Essentially, I just want to say I am looking forward to a high-B solution to the fifths-tuned guitar. I believe it will be historical, and maybe even a little revolutionary.
    Last edited by groveland; Apr-26-2009 at 7:47pm.

  9. #34

    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    It could be that Fripp has a good sense of humor about what he is selling in the Guitar Craft courses. I think, though, that the way the Guitar Craft course is set up encourages people to sublimate themselves in order to completely conform and fit in.

    Many of the exercises have to do with passing a tone from a person to a person sitting adjacent. One tries to play something which fits in, and gets immediate feedback on how it sounds just through listening. Further exercises use particular scales and chords which are common to Guitar Craft pieces, and also use rhythmic devices used during Discipline-era Crimson.

    What is interesting is that there is no way to start exploring outside of that, without moving away from the herd. Since other players are playing only in a narrow spectrum of what a mando-tuned instrument can do, one person can't move things away from that immobile center. Further, there is pressure to keep to that center, because if one explores non-Frippian space, it doesn't necessarily fit the angular Fripp stylings, and it will clash.

    It's sad, in a way, when one considers what a mandolin orchestra can do, or the Mando Boys, or the Modern Mandolin Quartet, and then one thinks of the core GC pieces. Is that really all there is?

    ----

    The best item for sale at the old Guitar Craft shows was a little monograph by Fripp, where he talks about the importance of playing in tune, in tone, and in time. There was a lot of verbiage about how the note must match the music in all three ways... but it just seemed like a lot of padding. It might seem more profound to state all three, and explain all three at length as if talking to a child, than to just point out, play in tune, don't have notes barking in a quiet section, and play in time. I don't think I'm particularly clever, but how much does one need to belabor the point for the average person to understand?

    ----

    Having spoken with a few folks who decided that GC was a bit too odd for them, the consensus among them was that there were a few good ideas at the core, but there was too much... hmm. I have to think about what to say here.

    I have read through the online blogs of those who have kept such a diary or blog as a requirement of taking a GC course. It's interesting to read how GC people felt that they had to give more and more to GC, and how they would even do so while falling ill, because of their commitment.

    I have read accounts of former cult members who note that their cults pushed them to dedicate resources to the cult, time, money and energy. They would give more and more to their cults, even while falling ill, because of their commitment.

    I'm sure there's either a difference or a conclusion in there. Can anyone help me here? *laugh*

    ----

    Since this is actually a thread about the new "standard" tuning, let me close on that subject.

    I think that all the talk about the superiority of the high G4, instead of going for an all fifths, might just have been putting a good face on things. The string technology just wasn't there yet at the point Fripp started promoting New Fripp Tuning, and tuning lower sounded like cr*p (or at least that was my experience), or gave odd open notes if one used the high G4 as the start of an all fifths tuning. I was already playing an Ovation shallow bowl and was done with my fifth-tuning experiments by the time Fripp started promoting GC; I had decided that if I couldn't get to all fifths adequately, going to all fifths and a minor third was just shifting around the problem of standard tuning in an inadequate way.

    Now that I've got my guitar tuned to all-fifths mando tuning, I'm convinced that New Fripp Tuning will be just one choice in the future for those who don't want to go the distance to all fifths. The fifths tuning is so much easier to get into, and so much material is already written for it, from bluegrass to Bach. However, I'm sure there might be some who want to replicate all the tonal ideas contained in GC, so I'm sure there will always be a market for New Fripp Tuning and its truncated minor third interval on top.

    Cheers!
    Playing a hexed Eastman 614 oval-hole with scroll (hoodooed with MandoVoodoo!), a Flatiron 1SH mandola (original owner), a McNally Ukulele Strumstick in CGDA mandola tuning, a McNally 4-string Chromatic Strumstick in GDAE octave mandolin tuning, and rocking my six-course, unison-tuned 12-string Ovation mandophone/extended cittern in CGDAEB Full Fifths Tuning...

  10. #35
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    Some of those sentiments are what I tried to articulate before I deleted the above post. Particularly that the 'G' is a suboptimal workaround, with excuses.

    Speaking of which, where can I find one of these magic $5 B strings, anyway?

  11. #36

    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    Groveland, believe me, I'll be posting the source once I see what it can do. I just don't want to start a rush and then run into a bunch of problems... and then run into a bunch of people who ran into the same problems because of my initial enthusiastic postings.

    "You arranged a small reception? Just for me? Behind this casino? Wow, that's great!"

    *laugh*

    Plus, I want to be sure to get the 12-string of my dreams before the market gets bought up from folks who want to do the same thing... *laugh*
    Playing a hexed Eastman 614 oval-hole with scroll (hoodooed with MandoVoodoo!), a Flatiron 1SH mandola (original owner), a McNally Ukulele Strumstick in CGDA mandola tuning, a McNally 4-string Chromatic Strumstick in GDAE octave mandolin tuning, and rocking my six-course, unison-tuned 12-string Ovation mandophone/extended cittern in CGDAEB Full Fifths Tuning...

  12. #37

    Default Re: CGDAEG "Crippled Fifths Tuning"

    I've posted the results so far of my foray into full fifths tuning, at least the hardware side of it, here:

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=50620

    The source of the strings is here:

    http://octave4plus.com/

    I give more set-up details in the other thread, as well as my one tuning mistake. *laugh*

    Now that I'm settling into using what I'm calling, at various moments, "Standard Fifths Tuning," "Full Fifths Tuning," or "Full Mando Tuning" on guitar, I'm finding myself using it both open and with a capo. It's interesting to approach it both ways, as there seem to be some mandolinistic niceties which work with the fifth-fret capo to simulate open mandolin playing, but which are hard to capture playing with completely closed fingering.

    (For the edification of those who don't know, by closed I mean that I'm not relying on any open strings, so I can move shapes up and down the neck without relying on an open string. Open playing takes advantage of open strings.)

    I had been working on chord shapes which use all 6 strings, but it seems to be... too wide, I guess, in terms of chord tones. At the moment, I'm feeling better about chording either in a mandola - mandolin range (top five strings, fifth fret and above), or in a open stringed, bottom five mandocello - octave mandolin - cittern way. It's easy to leverage five strings into extended chords, and even limiting things to four strings is still not as limiting as I would have thought. I wonder if my feelings about the chording possibilities, and about the sounds of the chords, might be a fossilized preference for the two classes of mando instruments. I'm going to have to do a bit more exploration and see if I can get past whatever mental roadblocks I've put in my own way.

    (Earlier in this thread, there was some discussion of using a re-entrant B3 as the top string of FFT (Full Fifths Tuning). I wonder if any of my thoughts on the width of chord tones might be congruent with how those using the re-entrant B felt about the voicing.)

    I will no longer, even in quotes, refer to Fripp's tuning as anything remotely standard. Instead, I can and will now think of it "Crippled Fifths Tuning," or "CFT." I think that "Full Fifths Tuning" is a nice way of not even getting into the possibility that someone has invented a standard (especially if it's just the logical outgrowth of fifth-tuned instruments up to now), and "Full Mando Tuning" might not communicate to guitar players what they have to gain.

    Since you all are on the Mandolin Cafe, and are in this thread, I assume that you also have an interest in extending the fifths tuning across the full fretboard. I'll be interested in hearing of where you go, now that it's achievable. I love the idea that, just like standard tuned guitar and mandolin, there will be a huge variety of different musics, sharing only the accidental commonality of how the strings happen to be tuned.

    Cheers!
    Playing a hexed Eastman 614 oval-hole with scroll (hoodooed with MandoVoodoo!), a Flatiron 1SH mandola (original owner), a McNally Ukulele Strumstick in CGDA mandola tuning, a McNally 4-string Chromatic Strumstick in GDAE octave mandolin tuning, and rocking my six-course, unison-tuned 12-string Ovation mandophone/extended cittern in CGDAEB Full Fifths Tuning...

  13. #38
    Registered User Stephen Lind's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    Quote Originally Posted by T.J. View Post
    I have read through the online blogs of those who have kept such a diary or blog as a requirement of taking a GC course. It's interesting to read how GC people felt that they had to give more and more to GC, and how they would even do so while falling ill, because of their commitment.

    I have read accounts of former cult members who note that their cults pushed them to dedicate resources to the cult, time, money and energy. They would give more and more to their cults, even while falling ill, because of their commitment.

    I'm sure there's either a difference or a conclusion in there. Can anyone help me here? *laugh*----
    sure
    "don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters"

  14. #39
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    All this talk about NST in fifths got me thinking. I have a travel guitar that I always thought the neck was too narrow for six strings. Why not make it five strings tuned in fifths. The scale length is 22.5 so I went with the octave mandolin plus a high b.
    First I plugged four of the holes in the bridge.
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    Dave Schneider

  15. #40
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    Then I drilled three new holes, and reslotted the nut.
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    Dave Schneider

  16. #41

    Default Re: CGDAEG "New Standard Tuning"

    Dave, how narrow was the guitar at the nut? I'm just curious, because even my Flatiron mandola is only 1 1/4" at the nut, and that's for 4 double-strung unison courses. Since mandolin-instrument string spacing is quite a bit more narrow compared to guitar, and as the guitar was single strung, that seems really roomy.

    Then again, I have fairly small fingertips, apparently.

    High B at 25.5" means you got an Octave4Plus string for that pitch/scale length combination, right?

    I, for one, am grateful to have an octave mandolin/bouzouki/mandocello range instrument for significantly less than the current cost....
    Playing a hexed Eastman 614 oval-hole with scroll (hoodooed with MandoVoodoo!), a Flatiron 1SH mandola (original owner), a McNally Ukulele Strumstick in CGDA mandola tuning, a McNally 4-string Chromatic Strumstick in GDAE octave mandolin tuning, and rocking my six-course, unison-tuned 12-string Ovation mandophone/extended cittern in CGDAEB Full Fifths Tuning...

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