Describe old-time

[billkilpatrick]

- as distinct from country, country and western and bluegrass. probably been done before but - as someone said - a refreshing point of view is always welcome.

never heard of "early country" before - would stephen foster be correct? ... 19th cent. popular songs?:

http://www.stephen-foster-songs.de/Archiv.htm

- bill

[AlanN]

I once heard a radio DJ call it **fiddle and banjo cra9**

[sunburst]

I believe this "description" came form a case sticker:

"Old-time music - it's not as bad as it sounds"

[lgc]

Old time isn't distinct from country because in many ways it is the only country. If you take the genre title "Country" literally, and I don't know why one wouldn't, then old time is the only form of music in the country umbrella that represents a purely country aesthetic-the lives of those who lived in rural post industrialized America. This is especially true of the field recordings where people took wax cylinder recorders and captured the music of the country in the country.

Old time is not a kind of music. It is music from a time. Blues, fiddle music, some jazz, cowboy songs, rag, brother duets are all part of what today is concidered country.

[Paul Kotapish]

Bill,

There have been a number of previous threads about this topic, and scholars differ.

As most commonly used, the term "old time" refers to tradition-based string-band, solo, and duet music of the rural south, and would include instrumental dance tunes and airs as well as ballads, play-party ditties, and novelty songs.

In general this refers to the styles that were common prior to the particular variant of old-time string band music that evolved into bluegrass under Bill Monroe's guidance Some folks like to parse the meaning a little more specifically to mean just fiddle and banjo music (clawhammer or frailing or pre-Scruggs two- or three-finger styles), but most folks have a more inclusive meaning that would embrace the mandolin and guitar duets such as the Monroe Brothers or the Blue Sky Boys, the early recordings of Doc Watson, and most of Norman Blake's work, for example.

In my book, old-time music includes folk music performed primarily at home by tradionalists such as the Hammonds family or the Watson family or the Richie family as well as the commercial string-band music of early country artists like the Carter Family, Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers, Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers, et al.

Modern revivalists and practitioners of old-time music include the seminal New Lost City Ramblers, Tom, Brad & Alice, Foghorn Stringband, Stairwell Sisters, Chicken Chokers, and many, many others.

A lot of folks make a clear distinction between old-time music and bluegrass; others--me, for instance--view bluegrass as a specific variant of the broader realm old-time string-band music.

Here's a handy link to the Old-Time Music Home Page.

You'll get some more opinions and resources there.

Here's a link to a previous discuss here about "What is Old-Time Music?"

[John Flynn]

This is a quote I got from an old time site on the web that works for me:

Old-time music is the hand-made and homemade music of the southern Appalachians and rural pioneer America. Growing out of Anglo-Scots-Irish traditions with some African-American elements thrown in, it was commercialized in the 1920s and 30s as hillbilly music. String bands usually include a fiddle, banjo, guitar, and string bass, but mandolins, dulcimers, and other instruments are also used. Old-time vocals include gospel, ballads, and lyric songs.

I don't think the differences with Country and Western deserve much discussion. As has been discussed in other threads, C&W today is just pop music with steel guitars and cowboy hats. It has no relation to old-time that I can see or hear.

The following are differences that I have noticed, at least in my local area, between bluegrass and old-time. #While any one of those differences might leave only a blurred distinction between the genres, the whole list, taken together, makes a big difference. Most people familiar with either genre could tell the difference almost immediately on first hearing a tune bring played.

NOTE: There are certainly exceptions to all of the items below and they are not intended to be a set of "rules" or a completely valid set of characteristics. These are just some observations and opinions developed for my own use. YMMV.

1. Solo breaks are the usual practice in BG. They are never done in OT.

2. Singing, especially harmony singing, is done on most BG tunes. It is done in only a few OT tunes.

3. Blues progressions are common in some BG tunes, but rarely if at all in OT.

4. Blue notes, such as flatted thirds and sevenths, in both chords and melodies, are common in BG, but almost never heard in OT.

5. BG has much more emphasis on performance for audiences. OT is much more what I call "participation music," oriented toward jams and contra dances.

6. BG has gotten fairly commercial. Most of the big players are national/international celebrities that make a full-time living from playing music. Therefore commercial interests control much of what happens in BG. OT is still mostly non-commercial. The big players are regional celebrities at best and most still have day jobs. As the saying goes, "There's tens of dollars to be made playing old-time."

7. BG is popular music that is about 50 – 75 years old and has developed a strong, loyal fan base. It was developed by Bill Monroe from OT and the blues, with his own unique spin. OT on the other hand, is true folk music that has evolved over centuries. It has been an ingrained part of rural American and European cultures.

8. BG is usually played standing up. OT is usually played sitting down.

9. In OT, mandolin is not too common. When it is used, it is more commonly an oval hole type with a sweet, melodic sound. In BG, it is a key instrument and it is typically an F-hole type with a sharp, percussive sound.

10. OT uses open-backed banjos, played in the clawhammer, or similar, style. BG uses resonator banjos, played three-finger style. Many say the latter is key to the BG sound and it is never heard in OT.

11. The guitar in OT generally only plays rhythm and bass runs and the emphasis is on a sweeter tone. In BG, the guitar plays solos as well as rhythm and tends to be more percussive.

12. Instruments such as mountain dulcimer, hammered dulcimer, hardanger fiddle and banjo uke are known and accepted in OT, but not at all in BG. Bass and dobro are very common in BG, but rare in OT.

[lgc]

I disagee with all but 6,7,10,12. Ols time is unbelievably broad as a form. From Blind Blake to Ariona Dranes. Both break a buncha those rules and they are just the tip.

[John Flynn]

Like I said, they are not rules, just observations that work for me.

[AlanN]

uh oh..are we heading to a "That ain't old-time" discussion? I hope so

[mingusb1]

Oldtime is not a crime.

Z

[mandolirius]

<Oldtime is not a crime.>

nor is it a punishment


i thought mando johnny's observations were pretty accurate except for:

<6. BG has gotten fairly commercial. Most of the big players are national/international celebrities that make a full-time living from playing music. Therefore commercial interests control much of what happens in BG. OT is still mostly non-commercial. The big players are regional celebrities at best and most still have day jobs. As the saying goes, "There's tens of dollars to be made playing old-time.">

Around here old-time music is on fire. There are lots of new players, new bands and they are getting followings and gigs. The early 20's folks are more interested in old-time than bluegrass. I think it's because they see it as more of a group participation, "let's all get together and have some fun" type of experience than bluegrass, which seems to be more about practising with your band and getting better. Not to say old-time players aren't doing that, but the old-time jams around here are more attractive to this generation than the bluegrass jams. There are tons of clawhammer banjo players here now, but bluegrass banjo players are rare as hen's teeth.

I just got back from a weekend long jam camp and all the old-time players were under 30, the bluegrass player for the most part were over 30.

[lgc]

I saw if a form of muic is on the Harry Smith Anthology then it is old time. I ain't saying what old time ain't, I'm sayin what old time ain't ain't.

[John Flynn]

bluegrass banjo players are rare as hen's teeth

Sounds like heaven to me!

[mandolirius]

Quote
bluegrass banjo players are rare as hen's teeth

Sounds like heaven to me!


It is, until you need one for a gig.

[james condino]

The boys in the Foghorn String Band describe it as this:

"In bluegrass, everybody takes a turn soloing and it gets passed around. In old time, everybody solos, all of the time..."

j.
www.condino.com

[lgc]

After I last posted I walked away and thought about the views about BG and OT on this board and in the broader discourse. How is it that OT, which may be the single broadest musical genre of all time,ever, is so narrowly defined to mean Appilachain fiddle music? It is 2 or 3 dozen forms of music. And then how is BG, which is a farily narrow genre of music, with a disrinct starting point, a small group of distinct originators, and a defined set of aesthetics get so broad that any music with three finger banjo in it is BG?

[lgc]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=47357;hl=lgc

[Michael H Geimer]

Contra Dances are probably the most common, public situations to hear Old-Time music, so it doesn't surprise me that the term is often associated with Appalachian (and New England) fiddle tunes.

[mandolirius]

<How is it that OT, which may be the single broadest musical genre of all time,ever, is so narrowly defined to mean Appilachain fiddle music? It is 2 or 3 dozen forms of music. And then how is BG, which is a farily narrow genre of music, with a disrinct starting point, a small group of distinct originators, and a defined set of aesthetics get so broad that any music with three finger banjo in it is BG?>

How? Because labels aren't accurate. I think, of the 2 or 3 dozen forms you're thinking of, most of those would fall under "country" in my mind. Now my definition of country is basically the myriad of styles that first went on the air as the Grand Ol' Opry. So I'm undoubtedly thinking of some of the same things you are, only you're classifying them as old time. And if we were having this discussion anytime prior to 1950, we wouldn't even be calling any music bluegrass, because there was no such word for a musical style. It was the name of one guy's band or a type of green shoot that looks blue in the light. And zipping right along to modern times, you would not believe the bands I hear described as bluegrass (along with four or five other stylistic labels) in the local music rags:
"celtic/cajun/blues/rock/bluegrass titans" was one I recall. I guess it's easy to be a titan. Just create your own category and you're the king of it. Labels to me are just not useful, other than for occasional comedic relief, so I pay them very little heed.

[OregonMike]

Good discussion - We saw Dirk Powell and Riley Baugus play with Foghorn Stringband last night and it was some of the finest "Old Time" music I could imagine - classic dance hall barn burners (not once did I even think Bluegrass). They also played several of their Cold Mountain tracks with Tim Eriksen who was stunningly good.

[mythicfish]

It's the name of a kind of music used by "the people who play it" in order to differentiate themselves from" the people who don't play it". #In that respect, it's identical to bluegrass.

[John Flynn]

I think it's important to have a context for a discussion about a genre title like "old-time" or "bluegrass." What I mean is, that defining "old-time" as "only Appalachian fiddle tunes," for instance, has one implication if you are in a broad discussion of musicology, but quite another implication if you are using it to define what kind of music is going to be played at given jam in a given part of the country.

I'm fine with people calling anything old-time that they want to call old-time for the sake of academic argument or even a discussion over a beer. But if you are attending an "old-time jam" in my area of the country, what kinds of tunes will be called and played at that jam, and what kinds of instruments will be welcomed, will fit into a pretty narrow set of characteristics. That is not any rule I have made, or even the way I would like it to be. It's just they way it is. I am sure there are different sets of characteristics everywhere you go.

I think the failure to clearly define the context for the definition is why these kinds of discussions often become pointless, unresolvable debates.

[Michael H Geimer]

With the OP's reference to Stephen Foster, I don't think the question was coming from the perspective of Old Time Jamming.

I think the recent online libraries of field recordings are going to expose a lot of people to rural mountain music who may not know anything of Old Time Jamming (and it's regional expectations).

IMO, it's the jams and dances that have narrowed the expectations to songs and performance styles that fit the local events.

Solo ballads, slow tempo tunes, and vocal songs aren't as useful to a dance, and so they aren't always welcome. That doesn't mean they aren't part of the genre. They just got left out of the jam and dance scene.

[John Flynn]

With the OP's reference to Stephen Foster, I don't think the question was coming from the perspective of Old Time Jamming.

I see the first post in a thread as a conversation starter. The conversation can then go in all sorts of directions and like it or not, it usually does. I don't see the purpose of a post as just strictly answering the OP's question, especially if it has already been answered several times in earlier posts. Also, I've heard Steven Foster tunes called at OT jams, so I wouldn't see that as a limiting factor in any case.

[Michael H Geimer]

Yes, all in conversation. I was hoping you would take my comments above in a conversational spirit, and not in an argumentative way.

Friday!