Which bowlback?

Hello there,
I seem to be seeing an awful lot of old bowlbacks in our area (antique shops/auction rooms etc)at the moment.
Theres always a few but loads at the moment, strange phenomenon?
I have a couple of 'wall hangers'in the past but I would be grateful for any advice on what to look out for in regard to actual playability and/or collectability.
Cheers DeputyDawg

[Jim Garber]

Ideally one with the following attributes is a place to start:

1. No cracks, top or back
2. No warpage fo the top
3. Tuners functioning
4. neck straigh with usable frets

In short: the same that you would look for in any fretted instrument.

As far as vintage brands (you didn't say where you were located), these are among the best (no particular porder of preference):

American
C.F. Martin
Vega
Washburn (American Conservatory)
Bauer

Italian:
Calace
Embergher
Vinaccia
Stridente
DeMeglio


There are many others I am not including but you would have to judge on an individual basis and condition. More about this later.

If you have particular examples, post them here.

Also check out this article by the Cafe's Richard Walz here.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I see you're in the UK (as am I) -- there are loads of old bowlbacks in British attics, the vast majority of them Italian, and therefore, Ebay UK is a happy hunting ground. The vast majority of what's there is unplayable rubbish, though, and most of them were unplayable when they were new, too.

It's best to stick to a few reliable names of makers. The "big three" are highly collectible, very expensive, and there aren't very many of them around: Embergher, Calace and Vinaccia. However, there is another small group of makers that were not necessarily any lower quality, and that were similarly coveted at the time when they were built, but that for some reason or another didn't catch the eye of modern collectors and are therefore very much cheaper, indeed sometimes the same price as the unplayable rubbish. The names here are: De Meglio, Ceccherini, Salsedo, Loveri, Monzino and anything that says "allievi di Vinaccia" on the label (i.e. "pupils of Vinaccia", a description adopted by a considerable number of makers who passed through as an apprentice, glue mixer or general dogsbody through the Vinaccia shop). You are unlikely to come across any other real quality makers in the UK -- there were other good makers, but I don't think they were much imported to the UK.

Regarding condition and playability, it's the same as with any other vintage instrument: is the neck straight, are there any cracks or top sinkage, are the tuners in good condition? The main weak point in bowlbacks is the neck joint, which can move significantly if the mandolin was overstrung. Luckily, bluegrass gauge strings weren't as prevalent in the past in the UK as in the US, and therefore fewer bowlbacks have been destroyed by them. A major alarm sign is if the bridge is on the wrong side of the cant, i.e. on the tailpiece side rather than the soundhole side.

Martin

PS: I may have a decent vintage bowlback to sell -- PM me if you're interested!

Thanks Jim,
I am in the UK (Cumbria to be precise), so mainly italian jobs turn up, a Martin/Vega is to much to hope for.
I can assess the condition ok and do some restoration to a point but here's a thing that stumps me on the two I already have. The fretboard 'extension' for lack of a better word is glued flat to the top of the instrument so the bridge height ends up ridiculously low (like4/5mm)to avoid a killer action. Is this normal or do some models have a raised fretboard so to speak?
DD

[Martin Jonas]

Stridente

Stridentes are super-abundant in the UK, but having seen a few now, I'm not sure I would include them in the list of desirable makers. The ones I've seen were serviceable and certainly not tourist trash, but not really remarkable.

Martin

Cheers also Martin, beat me in there fella,fast typing!
I know what you mean about the unplayable rubish though, its chronic sometimes (nice wall deco though)

[Martin Jonas]

The fretboard 'extension' for lack of a better word is glued flat to the top of the instrument so the bridge height ends up ridiculously low (like4/5mm)to avoid a killer action. Is this normal or do some models have a raised fretboard so to speak?

That's perfectly normal for Neapolitan bowlbacks; in fact it's part of the fundamental design. #Roman mandolins (i.e. Emberghers and related ones) have thicker fretboards and higher bridges, but are super rare in the UK

Some of the best and most expensive vintage bowlbacks, i.e. all Vinaccias and many older Calaces, have these very low bridges and sound spectacular, so it's not an indication of quality.

Martin

Martin,
I suppose its just weird when one is not used to it.
A whole different beast to be sure.
I did actually get one of mine playable at one point and it was working ok, it had a noce delicate tone but the bugger was loud (projection wise)

[Jim Garber]

Deputy:
Ah different situation that you are in the UK. Martin gave you the good names and Britain was a hotbed of Italian imports at the turn of the last century so you are in the right place.

Jim

Thats good to know Jim,
In fact i'm tempted to say,
"There's bowlbacks Jim, but not as i know them".....Yet!
I will boldly go to antique shops and car boot sales I have not been to before.
Ahem, sorry about that, drifted off a bit there (i dont even like star treck)
DD

[8ch(pl)]

Weymann is another good American brand.

[Jim Garber]

Hard to find decent American vintage instruments in the UK because they were flooded with good (or better) Italian imports (mentioned above) in the golden age of the bowlback.

Jim

Jim,
I agree totally, I have looked at every mando I have stumbled upon in junk shops etc for years and years and to this day have never seen a USA model.
Its a shame really, a Vega would be lovely!!
But hey, as you point out, all those nice Italian jobs just waiting to be found.
(do you use the nickle wound strings btw?, D'aquisto i think they are)

[Jim Garber]

I use Calace strings on my better bowlbacks and GHS A240 on the questionable ones. I have also used Lenzner (now Fisoma) strings on my Demeglio and Optima on my Embergher but in any case, whatever you use should be very light in gauge and tension.

Martin can recommend exact numbers for the Euro-strings. He turned me on to Saitenkatalog.de for string purchases of that nature.

Jim

[PseudoCelt]

If you're in the UK, there is a 1920s Lyon & Healy bowlback for £150 on Hobgoblin's second-hand list. There are a couple of other bowlbacks there too.

Patrick

Thank you for that infomation Patrick,
I may just give them a beel regarding that.
Cheere Deputydawg.

[JeffD]

I have an idea to build a gazebo and enhance it with some mandolins. My idea is to get a bunch of unplayable unrepairable bowlback wall hangers, and nail them decoratively to the sides of the gazebo, painting all a uniform color.

Make a sort of inspirational jam space.

[JeffD]

Or not.

[Bob A]

Properly positioned, they might make attractive birdhouses. But that in turn would make the entry into the gazebo fraught with perils.

[JeffD]

fraught with perils.

You have an excellent point. Perhaps I need to rething this.

[Jim Garber]

I have an idea to build a gazebo and enhance it with some mandolins. My idea is to get a bunch of unplayable unrepairable bowlback wall hangers, and nail them decoratively to the sides of the gazebo, painting all a uniform color.

Make a sort of inspirational jam space.

Here you go...

Jim

[JeffD]

Jim I saw that and thought the very same thing. Sometimes great minds get the same idea at the same time, eh?

I think the lot is going to get kind of pricey for decorator mandolins, but you have the idea.

[Jeff Chu]

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has been posted earlier, but i am also currently trying to find a neapolitan mandolin, as i have just began playing. I am classical trained in violin, but have gotten interested in the mandolin sound. I have found it difficult to get ballpark estimates on these rare italian mandolins, and was wondering if icould get some insight from you experts. Im sure there are many modern day makers, but none of their sites ever have pricing. Im interested in a Pandini, but havnt been able to find much information on it besides that Carlo Aonzo plays one and loves it. what is the process for these famous luthiers, do they only build by commission, or do they distribute their instruments. Being in America, there are F-styles and A-styles everywhere, but it is harder to find information on these Bowlbacks. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. thanks guys. Also sorry, if the question of price is too personal. haha i just need some idea! thanks again.

-jeff

[Bob A]

Your options are new vs old, Italian vs US vs German.
Italian is subdivided into Neapolitan and Roman.

The German bowlback is a much larger beast than the Italian, usually strung with flatwound strings, and has a much more guitar-like sonority.

The Roman instruments, harder to find than the Neapolitan, have narrower, radiused fingerboards, are usually lined with shaved softwood rather than paper. Top maker of this style was Embergher, who employer Cerrone and Pecoraro (among others, of course). Roman mandolins tend to be pricier than Neapolitan, with the low end somewhere around $1500, the top about 5-6K (excluding super-fancy one-of-a-kind examples).

The older Neapolitans were made by Calace, Vinaccia (loys of Vinaccia family makers), Ceccherini, Salsedo, De Meglio and other lesser lights. The turn of the (20th) century was the most prolific era for these guys. You can pay anywhere from $200 to several thou for one of these, depending on how lucky you are, how tolerant of risk (they are sometimes unplayable due to being overstrung with heavier strings than they could tolerate) and how much time and money you're willing to invest in repair/restoration.

Newer instruments like the Pandini can be had for about 3K. Decent new Calace mandolins can be had for 8-900 and up.

There are nice US-made bowlbacks, by C F Martin, Vega, the Larson brothers (never under their own name; they built for Stahl, Maurer and others), Lyon & Healy, Washburn and others. These are perhaps more affordable than Italian instruments of the same vintage, since most bowlbacks are played and sold in Europe and Japan, where US bowlbacks are never found. Thus they tend not to compete at auction for these mandolins.

The classical section of this board has lots more info on the subject, even a Bowlbacks of Note thread, wherein examples are brought to the attention of the interested. Advice is dispensed liberally.

It's a nice, broad area of endeavor, and the nicest part is that it's very possible to find a really nice instrument for very little money, if you have time and luck and a good eye and enough relevant information.

[Jim Garber]

Im sure there are many modern day makers, but none of their sites ever have pricing. Im interested in a Pandini, but havnt been able to find much information on it besides that Carlo Aonzo plays one and loves it. what is the process for these famous luthiers, do they only build by commission, or do they distribute their instruments.

Daniel Larson is one of the few luthiers in North American who does make very nice bowlbacks. I believe that he builds them to order and his prices are listed on his site. This is his classical page but he also makes historical instruments as well.

As for Pandini, you could write to him. I can find out from Carlo how he works. I actually got mine thru Carlo when he brought one over but others on this list, have dealt directly with Mr. Pandini. At last I checked his price is 2500 euros for his Neapolitan which is larger in size than even the Calace. It is my main mandolin tho I own quite a few others.

I am in the New York area and there are a few other Pandini's located across the US that I know of. If you tell us where you are there may be one near you and if the owner is amenable, he or she might let you take a look and a try.

Jim