Rather than dinging a small, overworked company. What would good customer service from a wholesale/import company look like? Let's say a range of sound reinforcement, electric, and acoustic musical stuff. Different brands. A range of outlets.
Let's make the company very small, just a few people, and the margin fairly low, so there's not a lot of surplus cash for consultants and the like.
Does this company need an independent website at all?
Do buyers of these various things automatically expect to be able to reach the importer?
I really don't know the answers to these types of questions. But they're useful.
Assumption: This is starting from scratch in the US environment, not building from an initial start into direct contact of some kind.
I'm particularly curious about the Japanese model.
steve, a very successful car dealer once told me that you can lose your business reputation in 2 minutes at a cocktail party where a dis-satisfied customer tells the entire room "their horror story" concerning your business.
customer service is where the game is lost or won, granted you have a decent service or product. repeat business is what keeps companies alive. i think in order to survive these days you need to have at least a contact page with telephone and e-mail info on the web.
"your posts ... very VERY opinionated ...basing your opinion/recommendations ... pot calling ...kettle... black...sarcasm...comment ...unwarranted...unnecessary...."
Customer service is simply doing your best for the customer. Quick informative responces, quality products, fast shipping, and treating each customer better than what you would expect yourself. A website provides basic information and gives the business a more credible appearance, although it is not the true test of the business. The reputation and credibility of a business is proven by it's service.
I edited a trade magazine for music stores and I'm an expert on business communications. I was watching Jet Blue implode this week on tv after people were stranded on their planes in New York for 11 hours, then bumped the next day. A consumer marketing consultant speaking on Fox said companies can actually deepen their bonds with customers (not just do damage control) by OVER-responding to customer concerns. There are mitigating factors here such as cost, and the fact that you are distributing through dealers. The dealer's job is to support the line, but the reputation is all yours to gain or lose. Do you need a website? Yes, if you plan to stay in business. Do you need to be responsive in these type of discussions? As long as you're not empowering someone to drag you through the mud in reply. Anything you can afford to do to uphold that brand image is ultimately money in your pocket.
Eastman 605, Strad-o-lin, and Kentucky 300e mandolins.
If a website was all it took, then Folk of the Wood would be loved around the world. A website is pretty much essential nowadays though - for an easy and convenient way of communication. COMMUNICATION....that's the key to good customer service. Like everyone else has said here, prompt (as close to instantaneous as possible) and courteous communication is essential. The other necessary element is the customers' expectations. You have to let folks know what can be expected, and a website can be used to help do that. I don't think that managing expectations by saying, "we're small and we don't have much money, so we'll get to you when we can" will help generate many sales though. Whatever you say your customers can expect for product quality and customer service and/or warranty work, you'd better deliver promptly and courteously without the customer having to read you back your promise to you off your website or wherever.
Of course, it's impossible to be perfect, and even if you were, you'd still never be able to please everyone you deal with. Disagreements and disappointments are inevitable. Just try to make sure that when they happen to you, that you aren't the one who is unreasonable or rude. If you make a mistake, ADMIT it and make it right. A 2-minute story somebody tells about how you recognized you were wrong and kindly made it right is the most valuable advertising you can get.
Thanks. I'm mulling this type of thing over. With multiple brands, probably having a website for each brand would make more sense, probably with a page that indicates the brand is distributed by XYZ and indicating the contact will be with XYZ Importing. So the fartworld jazz mandolin site would direct visitors to write info@XYZ.com. And the hobbitmaster microphone site would do the same. Does that make sense?
Thing is, this is more than service to customers, it is service and information on down the supply chain. I tend to read things as they're written. Someone writes "customer service" I read "customer" as someone who buys something from you. Apparently this is a broader term in today's usage.
Steve,
If your goal is to improve YOUR business, you need to use the website for that end. That means that you need to be very careful directing people off of you site and to someone else's. Not only do you lose their attention, you lose control of content.
However, that being said, you need to give a lot of thought to what you want to use a website for. Being a small shop with limited resource, you probably don't want the site to do everything. Instead, focus on what you want it to do.
I did a site for a small canoe and kayak shop back in the day and, after a while, realized that the best service the site was performing was to get people to call the shop. They were good at customer relations, so getting a call was the best thing that could happen.
I agree a website is probably necessary, but it pays to give a lot of thought to what goal you wish it to serve. Do you want to reach a lot of people? Focus on price point and selection. Do you want to focus on your staff's expertise? Focus on technical tips, thoughtful advice, and getting the customer to talk with you in person. Want to focus on sales? You need a good shopping cart and very good visuals.
Etc.
It's a complex issue. A good web development company isn't cheap, either.
I'd be willing to discuss this with you off the board (gratis as I no longer do web sites for income) to see if I can help you clarify your thinking. PM me if you're interested and we'll start a dialog.
Bill
Steve,
If I bought XYZ brand widget from Fartworld.com and had a problem, I would prefer if Fartworld.com would address it first. Then if they failed me only then would I could contact INFO@YXZ.com . #I would expect the dealer to help me first. #I would prefer if XYZ brand were mentioned on the Fartworld.com site there would be a link or total info (e-mail and phone for XYZ Brand Inc.) #Let the dealer deal with it first is my motto.
BTW, the hobbitmaster microphone's cord is too short. #You should have them fix that, then I would buy one.
The dealer should be very clear on their contact us page what they can and can't do and the best way to reach them.
Jamie
There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946
If I purchased something from a dealer and it developed a problem I would expect the dealer to represent me to resolve the issue. They are the ones who made the sale and the profit. If they told me to contact the manufacturer and the manufacturer failed to attempt to address the issue I would expect the dealer to work towards a resolution, since they have more pull with the manufacturer than I do.
Originally Posted by (giannaviolins @ Feb. 20 2007, 09:27)
So the fartworld jazz mandolin site would direct visitors...
Sorry to break the news, but I already own the domain, "fartworldjazzmandolin.com."
But seriously, as a retailer, I'd like to know, are you a wholesaler/distributor or retailer? Customer service or not, you certainly don't want to be competing with your own dealer base online.
I work corporate level customer service. A large part of what I do entails support for businesses who are NOT my clients, but who do business with my clients. I am employed because I treat everyone involved in the process as a key player.
Wholesalers who claim they only have a responsibility to their retailers (and not their end user) are ignoring their actual customers. That's just my opinion, but I've seen it play out in personal experience.
Edit to add a suggestion:
Good sales people are the key to a wholesale business (not web sites). If you feel there might be a need for "retail-style" customer service, then consider a Help Desk approach where a certain voice message box is set up for end user concerns and question. That box could be monitored by your sales people, but they would have an opportunity to move the message along to better informed individuals within your company.
Edit again (after reading the posts above mine):
A website is fine, and email is fine but ONLY if you have staff watching and replying to email. It's no different than voice-mail or snail-mail. They key factor is that communication is happening, and questions are getting answered. Web site are only good at addressing FAQ type issues, people feel better knowing they can ask questions outside the normal experience.
Any method should be allowed. I get initial contact via email, followed up with a phone call, referencing a form sent over via fax ... there are lots of ways to talk to people. I always need to be aware of my surroundings, and on the look out for correspondence that requires my attention. I can't shrug off a request because I didn't like the presentation, or because it was too much trouble to look at the fax machine as I walk past it.
Customer Service has to be a team effort. My field is technical, and so I can't possibly answer every question on my own. Mostly what I do is to make sure everyone's questions have been addressed. That does not require a major increase of the CS budget.
Again, all of this in relation to a large corporate account, but I feel the M.O. we use is the best approach for small business as well.
For "end user" retail level support I like the way REI handle's me as a customer/member.
Dinging a small olverworked compnay that asked for input and ignored its respondents would be more accurate
On to the question at hand
Small profit margins is an assumption unless you are speaking of your own business.
I am currently helping with the design and prototypes of musical instrument (s) made over there...
the cureent products are landed at about 1 6th of the retail price #
As a rule of thumb #1 1/6th is about right
That allows for failures in the product, warranties , discounting, wholesaling and so on
Fact American businesses that go to China as an example are not going there to reduce the customer outlay with a higher standard product #they are going there to increase their personal return on investment.
That said.. The title of the topic was customer servide but the questions asked really were not all focused at customtr service...
The real model for Japanase way of doing business was actually done by one guy #an American #who was rejected by American businesses for his radical idea so went to Japan
He was originally speaking to an ignorant uncaring bored audience #who then woke up 20 years later to find thir butts were kicked and badly
I claim Ford and Chrysler and other American companies fail ( as others have said) primarily from customer service, #seciond only substandard product ( Levis come to mind )
However as I mentioned in another post on another thread American public are so used to bad prioducts and bad service that they are used to it and expect it. It is my opinion that Americans are some of the dumbest consumers in the world.. and of course we have very limited access to the best of products #xenophobia and all thast
You dont have to be rich tio get good stuff #just smarter and have access
buy better buy less
Model # Martin Guitars
they do NOT offer feild training
they do not offer dealer management training and field customer service training
They siad that only 5 dealers in the US were capable of fixing my particular problem but the shortest waiting time would be several months and they would not repair it unless my local dealer tried and failed ( ie botched the job)
Called me an end user not a customer
Sold me 5 guitars in 5 years 3 which developed serious problems
that is the standard and the standard is low
add to that a reduction the material quality and other manufactuing shortcuts..
That is the standard and the standard is low
Their reps are sales oriented whereas in car makers
Sales reps #service reps and parts reps.. I have been all three and taught management and customer service as well
So Eastman statrs a "turnarround" by hiring another corporate drone to man the booth #how aboluit someone to man the phone and the #e mail and monitior and respond to the web site
Code Blue or whatever that airline is # did over react #and I am not sure about the CEO #but for now I'll take him at face value
He ADMITTED guilt #and STOOD UP to the failings
He said he will increase the white collar staff.. improve training etc..
For a real model #Go th VIRGIN # #music stores Airlines etc.. Branson (sp ) seems to be a straight shooter
Compare him to Henry # of Gibson fame... #
create a mystique rahter than a product or value ..
So what sepecifically are you asking that pertains to "customer service" # not just how to make #your proposed #business #fly ?
Your post re: definition of “the customer” prompts some thinking about our underlying assumptions and experiences defining who is relevant or irrelevant to a producer of products.
FWIW - I tend to think of myself as an Eastman customer - when someone asks me what mandolin or violin I play, my answer is “an Eastman (insert model number here)”. I don’t answer a “John Bernunzio” or a “Stephen Perry”. Eastman labeled/made the product I am now using.
The answer is the same for my family’s vehicles, I register them in terms of the company who (ostensibly) made the vehicle, not the dealership where I purchased it.
American advertising, among other things, really accentuates product name recognition. They bombard us to believe X-name is so much better than Z-name. And that you are buying the X-name product; it’s just by happenstance you bought it from a given retailer, but the X-name company is who you are ultimately doing business with. Nice illusion. And the retailers buy into it when it fits their marketing strategy.
One important issue in this retail world of ours is that too frequently retailers close, leaving us high and dry for service. At such times, my only recourse is to go to the X-name company for help. Or there are times when retailers are very clear - they want nothing to do with product warranties, you need to deal with the X-name company directly. There is a good deal of honest customer confusion out there.
I can understand your reasoning re: defining customer in terms of who does the initial purchasing from Eastman. But that simply places you in the role of customer also. I don’t think that it should nullify my relationship as an Eastman customer (and a person of value to them). Legally it may, but ethically it should not. Emphasizing the brand name for marketing, then excising that relationship after the sale just doesn’t seem right. I may be giving the retailer my money, but part of that money is then sent on to Eastman to pay for the item I bought ( a simplification of the process, I know)..
Maybe I should start telling people my mandolin is a “John Bernunzio blond oval”.
If I'm selling mandolins, I might even consider a BANJO player my customer! They work closely with mandolin players, and the success that banjo player's band might depend on a good sounding mandolin.
I don't see the utility of limiting the definition of Customer. I see opportunities in the expansion of that term.
Importer/distributo/manufacturer... not the dealer
In my own business I purposely ,limit my customers
First I DO NOT sell to the public only to galleries/shops/dealers
Any potential buyer who contacts me is sent to a dealer BUT
if there is a problem not resolved to my satisgfaction by a dealer I handle it and likely we have no more dealer..
My business philosophy with respect to selecting dealers ( I have fewer than 20 and am busy 14 hrs a day 6-7 dyas a week) I will not sell to any store that is not owner operated... no corporations, no absentee owners no buyers or brokers
with one exception..osemite NAt'l Park Gift Stores.. and that was an exception for good reason
looks good on a resume and they don't give me any grief
There is another kind of dealer... the kind that sells the goods takes the profits and disappears when the stuff hits the fan
guess we have all found them
then there is the dealer who will put themselves in between you and the maker/dealer/ distributor
one poster mentioned the expectation of a deale rgoing to bat for you... maybe and that is the good dealer... but then again many won't break their pick with the manufacturer for fear of reprisal
When I was a field rep handling really natsy problems I let the dealer say yes and I would say no to the customner if a request for assistance had to be turned down... why... I accept responsibility and I don;t wan't the dealer on negative footing with the customer
keep this in mind
whether it is a car a guitar or a mandolin..
the sales dept may sell the first one... but it is the service (dept) that sells the subsequent ones
It's not enough to communicate with customers. You have to satisfy customers and develop good word of mouth through them. Communications without follow through falls very flat. It's about relationship building, it's not just saying the right things, it's walking the talk. Inconsistency will lose you customers, yet it's difficult for even the most well meaning distributors.
Eastman 605, Strad-o-lin, and Kentucky 300e mandolins.
Originally Posted by (billhay4 @ Feb. 20 2007, 11:03)
Steve,
If your goal is to improve YOUR business, you need to use the website for that end. That means that you need to be very careful directing people off of you site and to someone else's. Not only do you lose their attention, you lose control of content.
Just a general question. I see a number of these small import companies around. Some have a website, some don't. When a company distributes several small brands things aren't as clear. I'm involved in such a company as well.
Think I'm OK with the slow development of my own sites. I like the gypsyjazz one and the fiddlestop in the same mold. Just have to get the violin one sharpened up!
Originally Posted by (mandohack @ Feb. 20 2007, 12:19)
Originally Posted by (giannaviolins @ Feb. 20 2007, 09:27)
So the fartworld jazz mandolin site would direct visitors...
Sorry to break the news, but I already own the domain, "fartworldjazzmandolin.com."
But seriously, as a retailer, I'd like to know, are you a wholesaler/distributor or retailer? Customer service or not, you certainly don't want to be competing with your own dealer base online.
Oh yeah, my current retail firm remains independent from wholesale distribution. We used to wholesale Gianna brand stuff, but don't any more. Dealer protection is sooo important. No "factory outlets" for me!
Thanks all, great discussion! I remember all the courses in Deming's work, TQM, continuous improvement, self-directed work teams, etc. I also tend to look at things in terms of privity.
That brands become more important than retailers seems clear. I can see the need to support the brand. That's a nice looking model. Support the brand and take over from the dealer when asked.
I like to monitor email & phones continuously. That's what we do in the retail shop unless there are glitches. More and more common in email from our experience.
I've got a better idea of expectations.
And I do find those of us with high standards for service run up against problems often here. I sort of expect my meal to look like the picture that got me to buy it in the first place. And so on. Seems to result in conflict too often!
Here's something funny. A guy got a fiddle with full setup from one of those folksy places we know so well. This particular model always came in with hideous unplayable setup from the importer, who we're also familiar with. The guy came in here wondering why he couldn't play it. I couldn't either! Some real problems. I called the folksy place and was informed it was of course fully set up, how dare I suggest they hadn't WHAT why you idiot I'm going to tell the boss. Bizarre. So I called the importer, got a number and permission to handle things. Did so. Never got one cent of credit or pay for it. That's anti-service to customer and dealer. There's a notable lack of their products in my store!
Anohter viewpoint and suggestion which to date has been ignored inspite of the obvious advatages to all parties.. maker/distributror/retailer and custome ( and I have spoked diorectly with some folks about this but as with Deming.. speaking to largely a narrow minded ignorant short sighted greedy audience)
PDI yes folks the same PDI as performed by car dealers.....and paid for by the factory by submitting the supplied check sheet...
1 copy for dealer records one for the customer and one to be sent back to the distributor/maker etc
This PDI is NOT intended to take the palce of the distributors responsility for all of these items.. but an assurance all is well.
The Pre Delivery Inspection
Essentially a check sheet with items to be inspected and or adjusted
This would include but not be limited to:
A visual inspection for damage
A visual inspection for fit and finish flaws
A cehck to make sure the instruments matches the specs
Check and adjust nut height
Check and adjust string height at the 12th (or whatever)
Check and adjust relief
Check tuner operation
Check intonation
Check for neck alignment
Check bridge for proper gluing, etc etc
Check tailpiece ( when applicable)
And so on
The dealer signs this off and submits the check sheet for reimbursement to the dealer.
This has many advantages..
The forst would be that it eliminates dealers who lack knowledge of the prioduct and the ability to service it..
Second ANY correction and expense for failure within the check and adjust guidelines would be absorbed by the
dealer for the first 30 days..
oh my wwould this automatically cut down on internet trade.. [perhaps
Customers who bought from a distant source would have special instructions during this period and any
charges would go back to the selling dealer
That will keep them on their toes..
So we have a check and balance system that would give everyone a better instrument
And lets say there is a simple charge of $25 ( or call it $35)
Oh you say the make can't afford this I say they must afford this...
it cuts down a lot on many so called warranty items and
tell me this won;pt give the maker/distributor increased clout and
think how impressive this would be to a (real) customer the eventual buyer
Somewhat of an assurance the instrument has been double checked and my dealer is not just a blow and go hustler
Combine this with a sensible transferrable warranty and this brand will rise to the top in image and hence profitability.
Car dealer stories
Dealer Called Zed's Sleds sells a Ymaquasi to a customer for $500 less than anyone else
Customer is from out of town
Customer has a problem and goes to his local dealer Symathetic Hernandos Clean New and Used Cars
Hernando see the happy tags and dealer plates from Zeds and tells the guy to go back where he bought it
who won?
Same scenario but Smilin JAck ahs the same unit come in his store and says to the customer t6his was a PDI problem but let me change out those license plate frames and we'll fix it for free
Again Sullivan banjos has a transferrable warranty on thweir self branded banjos... care to ask what the street opinion is of Bill Sullivan and his crew even from folks who never bought from hiom?
Then how about Gibson... where the last lione of frustration was aired on BAnjo Hangout and an employee of Henry's HArmony hut grandstands and says.. send it to me I'll fix it
What your dealers failed you and then you raise the flag and blow your horn about we care and fiorst class custoemr service
I say shut up and contact them privately and fix it and then whang on your substandard dealers and then your quality control folks.. no points
There is a local lumber yard home center that constantly harps on the radio we have the friendliest and most helpful staff in the industry..
parking lot is all but empty and across the street is another one and 12 miles down the road is another... no radio ads and the parking lot is full
Start with the product
choose dealers carefully
establish policies and cinsioder them to be guidelines not the stone tablet
There is a thing called "policy adjustment" or "good will" and this goes beyond simple warranty
but most retialers and manufacturers are clueless
Matter of fact an industry standard is policy adjustments of about 1 1./2% of grossprofit is a target figure
Beware the (car) instrument dealer who has no such policy or line on his financial statement
Statistically people will relay a negative experience 13 times in 30 days but only 2 times for a positive experience in the same time frame
BTW including today I am fortified of my opinion that a current major business philosophy is we have no end of customers..
don't count on that............
When I was with a couple companies they talked about 20 year and 50 year plans
others talked of 1 and 5 year plans...
I think that the most heinous of crimes a maker/distributor/dealer can commit is ignoring or dismissing you
No repsect bordering on contempt
NO customers are not always right but treat each situation that way
I am remembering attending a seminar held By Northwest Institute on dealership management and customer service
The instructor was a former VW form Detroit yup foreign cars in Detroit.. had to be good
His custoemr philosophy was simple.. his example was a repair gone bad and the customer ended up in his office
He called his office manager first thing.. gave the copy of the repair order to her and asked her to cut a check for the full amount
That done he handed it to the custoemr and said
What is it going to take for me to earn that back
That is service..
to the wall every day in every way
Too many failures and too many warranties ( Buick comes to mind) dump the product ( from a dealer's perspective)
Mandosis, I'm kind of the opposite of you when asked what it is I'm playing, I typically respond Eastman 814 that I got from Gianna Violins in Tennessee. I identify my instrument along with where I got it. The brand is great but the dealer made the difference.
By the way, Stephen or Ted whomever... anyone want a logo for Fartworldjazzmandolin.com???
Jamie
edit: Logos make all the difference!
There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946
How long does the warranty go, if not tied to the original owner? 5 years or 500,000 pick strokes, whichever comes first? Difficult. There are instruments I'd find difficult to back for more than a year (some guitars). Others that could reasonably be supported by a manufacture and materials warranty for 100 years (good violins).
Interesting information on the "goodwill" costs of absorbing non-warranty expenses. I'd guess that we're running much higher than that. Violins are pretty easily upset - we end up with lots of no-charge light maintenance work. Keeps everyone happy. I'm happy someone's fiddle works better. A fair number of fret dressings, bridge changes, and the like on fretted instruments.
The PDI concept seems excellent to me, especially in the weeding out area. We had our own checklist for a while. Used to include it with instruments. Might help cut out no-service dealers. I get to see a good number of instruments that aren't set up particularly well. New instruments. We do such an inspection. Catch a number of things each shipment and either return the instrument or arrange for a price reduction (which gets passed on). Minor stuff we just fix. Some things that go wrong simply can't be easily caught. Slightly dry glue joints, for example. That's where a dealer shouldn't be dinged just because something that couldn't be reasonably caught by inspection goes wrong. I'd love to be compensated for such inspections! In practice, we have to do that anyway. Based on what I see, some others feel they don't have to. I'm disturbed when a new instrument purchased elsewhere (whether or not I could have provided the same model) comes to me right away for setup. Seems that a relatively expensive purchase shouldn't need immediate work by someone else. Accepted, probably part of that low expectation of real service thing.
I don't know how a small importer would really enforce a PDI type program. I suppose one could put something in a dealer agreement. Until things start going wrong, there's not much way to tell if a return checklist is real or not. I think one problem suppliers have is keeping the intestinal fortitude to limit or even - perish the thought - fire dealers!
I suppose an ideal situation would be for a hands on inspection of each dealer applicant plus a survey card with each instrument, post paid. That might provide sufficient monitoring. Interesting concept, anyway!
There's certainly not an unlimited supply of customers. Very true. I notice that I have a relatively small body of persistent customers. Something I like to see. That's the way I like business to work. Where I go somewhere and visit with, eat out with, go see the sights, with someone who started out as a "customer."
I notice that many folks don't know what to say when I ask what they want when there's a problem. Possibly more fallout from the poor service mentality. My experience with Eastman is about like that. Do I want to send it back? Get a reduced price? Get a replacement overnighted? Very responsive. Unlike some former suppliers. Not that Eastman doesn't drop the ball sometimes, but that's true of all places. You'd probably find my experiences with HP and Circuit City funny!
What's really surprising to me is that some people call with what sounds like possible warranty problems, sometimes upset. I offer them a couple of solutions, explain what the problem sounds like. And they're apparently satisfied with that. I never see the instrument!
A flip side is the rare abusive customer. Wants to return something a month late, or returns something with big pick marks they forgot to mention, or mispacks something and then runs a chargeback when we refuse to refund for the broken instrument. Fortunately this stuff isn't common.
So:
1. Provide lots of information for your products
2. Make sure the dealers understand and service the product well, if useful, engaging a PDI process possibly paid for by the supplier
3. Provide the best feasible warranty (I see these as lifetime for original owner or transferable and of limited time)
4. Goodwill repairs & replacements as seem useful
5.
I agree with your answer IF I am talking to someone who knows anything about mandolins. #Most people simply ask "what kind" and have a blank look when I answer (if it isn't a Gibson or one of Stutzman's guitars....I know, I hang out around way too many guitar oriented people). I can and do add "I found it at John Bernunzio's and fell in love with #the sound".
I totally agree with you that the set up is critical #regardless of the brand of instrument you are dealing with. #When given the chance to have a conversation with a reasonable person about my instruments, I gladly give John Bernunzio as well as Steve Perry full credit for their great work #(Thank you to both! #I love my mandolin and my violin).
My only point was that I am a walking advertisement for Eastman and I am a customer of Eastman whether I pay my cash to them directly or through their designated representative. #
Hmmm, maybe the real issue is that I am a walking advertisement for Eastman and they would prefer to distance themselves from my playing.......... #
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Originally Posted by (giannaviolins @ Feb. 20 2007, 09:27)
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