Loose vs tight feel

[sgarrity]

I owned an F5 a while back that had a really tight feel to the playability. Especially the string tension. It was almost uncomfortable. A friend I pick with has a killer Gibson F5 that also feels tight to me.

The Red Diamond I have now has a very loose feel to it and is extremely easy to play. The Old Wave oval hole I just sold was also very loose feeling. Any ideas on what factors affect this? I was a t a jam this weekend and we got to discussing this. But none of us had any good answers.

Shaun

[Jim Broyles]

A tight feeling mandolin sounds to me like a combination of high action and heavy strings. Do you keep your action low and use lighter strings on your mandos? Maybe that's it.

I do know what you mean,
I think it takes some time to set things up to your liking.
For example, I have a basic eastman mando. When I bought it I was dubious to say the least about being able to get up any speed/sensitivity int playing the thing (after playing a Fylde with a zero fret/flat top etc).
It seemed realy 'tense' and just hard to play.
I have adjusted nut height/bridge height/string gauge(settled on J74 suprisesuprise) and just basicaly played the S**t out of it. It soon loosens up.
I'm getting back to my old speed and playability now.The tension seems to have eased.
SO... A good set up and lots of playing I think, (in my opinion obviously)
But does this really answer the question? probably not, I will now be silent.

[Walter Newton]

If there's a difference in scale length that would be a factor as well.

[Kevin Briggs]

I've noticed this too, and am at a loss to diagnose the source of "tightness."

I have tried J74s instead of J75s, super low action, super-tight truss rid,, super-loose truss rod, playing it like heck, etc. I've also noticed how some mandolins are tighter or looser than others.

I think maybe the nut plays a big part. Some repairmen/builders will cut the nut high to incerase its lifespan. Some will cut it lower for instant gratification and "looseness." I don't know though.

I do know that I have one mandolin that plays relatively loose with J75s, and one that plays relatively tight with J74s. However, the one that plays tight with J74s has incredible power and chop. The one that plays lighter sounds very beautiful, but has a hrader time holding up in a jam.

[mythicfish]

While issues of string gauge, set-up, fret size, etc. are certainly valid, each instrument has a way that it "likes to be played". I know, it's a fallacy to ascribe feelings to inanimate objects. That said, the mechanics of playing an instrument
require a physical ballet of forces - tension and release. And each instrument requires an adjustment in the application of these forces.
Or to paraphrase Yogi Berra: 90% of playing the mandolin is half mental.

Don't forget to breathe
Curt

[sgarrity]

I guess I should have stated in my original post that they all have the same standard mandolin scale length, they were all strung with J74 strings and I play a low action (roughly 1.5mm at the 12th fret). So take all of those factors out of the equation. And I guess we should take the oval hole A-style out too since it's a bit of a different beast. But if you look at the three F5's Im talking about, what else factors in here?

Thanks,
Shaun

[labraid]

measure nut clearance at the first fret with some feeler gauges.. Low nuts can be nice to play, but also can create backbuzz.

[MDW]

I think the angle of the neck set must have something to do with it as well.

[wayfaringstranger]

I've also been told that the angle of the headstock and the break angle of the strings at the bridge also make a difference. It's all geometry, I suppose.

[Kevin Briggs]

Ewww, geometry.

[labraid]

string type (phosphor bronze, nickel, stainless), gauge, height at both ends, fret size, and neck relief.. The rest is up to Marty the leprechaun who dances on yon tailpiece.

[labraid]

(wasn't joking about the leprechaun)

[arbarnhart]

Same strings, same scale and same action? Well, there is still radius and spacing, but assuming those are the same or of no consequence I would say it is purely from the frustration of trying to a get sound out of one that comes easily out of another.

[mythicfish]

Does this mandolin make me look fat?

Curt

[sgarrity]

I know geometry has to figure in somewhere. It's probably due to neck angle, nut height, peghead angle and maybe tailpiece height? Probably should have posted this over in the builders section........Although I swear I just saw a leprechaun jump outta my case

Shaun

[Big Joe]

There are a number of factors that will play into this. All things being equal there can still be a difference in the way an instrument feels to a particular person. Often it can be the neck angle coupled with the angle of the tailpiece. These can affect string tension and make one feel a bit more still than the other. Similar mandolins can have different angle. While it may not be that easy to spot with the eyes unless one examines carefully, the tension under the fingers can be far easier to guage.

Sometimes all things can be equal and one still feel different. The woods may be stiffer in one or any number of things may be ever so slightly different as to give a different feel. The amazing thing is that the one you feel is too lose may well be the one another feels is just right. The one you think is just right may be too loose or too tight for another. Different strokes for different folks.

[goose 2]

Shaun, I have thought about this a lot as well and don't have an answer. I too kinda think that it has got to have something to do with the geometry of all the angles that come into play. However, I asked Dave Harvey this very question once on the phone and he basically said that its kind of a mystery and noted that sequential MMs with the exact same set up done by him will often feel differently when played. These variances excited him and said that it one of the great things about fine instruments-they are all a little different. That being said, My old MM was quite stiff when I first got it and I thought it played much better the more I played it. I do prefer a "stiffer" feeling mandolin than say a "looser" one (for lack of better terms) because I have the perception that I have more control and there is more room for tone variety. However even this is probably because it is what I am used to. Interesting question though.. .I would love to hear some iput from some of the luthiers on the board.

[Greenmando]

I think the neck profile may have something to do with it as well. I have a old Montana Flatiron that feels like silk. My F9 is the newest with the least hours of play. Maybe this is part of being awake?

[jim_n_virginia]

With all things like specs and strings etc. being equal it only comes down to the setup, what type of finish, tightness (or looseness)of the wood grain and even humidity and surrounding temp can make a difference.

I am assuming you are talking about string tightness and string looseness because you mention ease of playing.

I am guessing what constitutes "tightness" and "loosenes" with you is nut height.

Because if the nut height is a tad bit high you can lower the bridge almost down to where it buzzes and you still will have to press harder on the fretboard but if the nut height is low (but not too low)it will be easier to play.

[labraid]

Chris Baird did an experiment not too long ago which confirmed something along these lines, which is partly what I'm basing my stubbornness on, besides that it just makes sense. [edit: As far as string tension / ease of pressing a string goes] nothing matters except what's between nut and bridge. Anyone find the thread? Someone had asked about the length of string between tailpiece and bridge, and how this was maybe contributing to the "loose" feel of his Phoenix..

[arbarnhart]

I remember that thread (that Brian/OldTymer refers to) and I also completely agreed with what he said but would even go a step further and say the fingerboard doesn't matter. If you have a string stretched to a given tension across open air and then hang a weight on it, the amount of weight it will take to cause it to bend a given amount will not vary because of what is under it or at the ends. It will vary based on the scale length and distance from the closest end. I think the original poster said the strings, action and scale length were identical. If that is the case, then the tightness as measured by how hard it is to depress strings will be the same. I reiterate my earlier suggestion that it is a perception based on sound. If you have to try harder to get the sound you want (or if you can't get it at all), you are likely to feel like it is tighter. The old human tendancy - the button doesn't seem to work so you push it harder...

[Jim Broyles]

Chris Baird did an experiment not too long ago which confirmed something along these lines, which is partly what I'm basing my stubbornness on, besides that it just makes sense. [edit: As far as string tension / ease of pressing a string goes] nothing matters except what's between nut and bridge. Anyone find the thread? Someone had asked about the length of string between tailpiece and bridge, and how this was maybe contributing to the "loose" feel of his Phoenix..

Overall string length, (bridge to tailpiece, for example) apparently has something to do with tension. An .011 high E on a guitar with a 25.5" scale has a tension of 19.62 lb. The same string, an octave higher on a 14" scale mandolin has a tension of 23.69 lb. Even if you fret the guitar at 12, the string tension will be the same, so a longer overall string length seems to me to lower tension. Now what I may be missing is the difference in nut to bridge length might be the only important thing here. Could you theoretically have a four foot .011 and as long as the nut to bridge was 25.5, would the tension still be 19.62 lb? If you moved the bridge to the 12th fret on a guitar, would the tension stay the same? I am being serious, not trying to start an argument.

[Walter Newton]

the old thread

[sgarrity]

Thanks for the link to that old thread. There's some very good info there from some very respected builders/repair/set-up folks. But it appears as if this is going to remain a bit of a mystery. About the only thing I can say is that I do not believe it is subjective. Everybody that plays my RD comments on how loose it feels/plays. Everybody that played my other F5 commented on its tightness. I'd like to think there is some logical explanation for all this. But maybe when we're dealing with so many variables it's just too difficult to pin point. What I do know is I'm holding on to this one and kickin' myself in the rear for letting the Old Wave go! I like the loose feel and it suits my playing style very well.

Shaun