1922 gibson f-4 70318

[carleshicks]

Last month I bought a truss rodded 22 F-4 that had a gibson repaired crack on the top basss side of the finger board duing the repaire gibson oversprayed the top with lacquer. I bought this mando just to spend some time with a Loar era f style instrument so I could study the binding miters the dovetailed point protectoers that scroll carvings and anything else that might make the loar inspired F-5 i want to build more authentic. I planned on keeping it for a month and then selling it. I bought it for a very good price and i thought I could actully make a little money on it also. But once I got the mando that non-original lacuer finsh bothered me so bad that i could not let it leave my shop with it on so I commeced to remove it.

[carleshicks]

I used lacuer thinner and a q-tip in a small area under the tailpiece to see how it would work. i also checked the thinner on a small piece of the rib to see how the thinner would react to the origainal french polisn finish on the ribs. after a few hours I had remved over half the lacuer revealing the original shelac below.

[carleshicks]

The spot that was the toughest to remave is near the binding the lacquer is so thick you can feel it and area the size of a quarter will take 30 minutes to remve. ( look how nice that original color looks.)

[carleshicks]

Once I started moving up toward the scroll and the repaired crack my biggest fear was revealed, after gibson made the repair they sanded the area before spraying the colored lacquer.

[carleshicks]

here it is with 90% of the lacquer removed. the color in the picture is not quite acurate but the treble side is in perfect shape and with a little French polish it will look great. The bass Side on the other hand needs some work. I will start color matching and French polishing this week If anyone has any pointers on matching the original color I would love to hear from you.

[carleshicks]

here is the treble side after removing all the lacquere

[carleshicks]

here is a pic of the back. It never was oversprayed

[mandolooter]

Well it has that played in look with the sanded areas showing. That sure is a beautiful back on that mando too. So whats the plan for when your done...sell it to cover cost's or keep it for pickin?

[testore]

Repair of fine instruments is very difficult. By the looks of it, it didn't look all that good before you started removing the overspray. It seams to me that repair in the mando world has a lot of catching up to do. That crack, for a well trained violin repair person, is routine and should have looked nearly invisable when finished. Only poor workmen sand the instrument enough to remove the color that is showm in the photos you've posted. So much for making a little money on that one.Did you say Gibson "repaired" that? If so I'd say you have a good reason to be pissed off.I'm trusting that the mando looked fine,minus the crack, when you bought it.Is it possible that the color removal was done earlier by someone else?Whatever the reason, I'd love to see how it looks when you're done.

[carleshicks]

It was repaired back in the 1950's by Gibson so I am not mad because stuff happens. My goal is to make it look as close to original as possible and sell it. It actually didn't look awfull with the lacquer it just didn't look right. I could hear the poor mando saying" fix me. fix me." so I had to do it. I had another crack on the treble side repaired by Gary Tope and it is invisible.

[Will Kimble]

Great job so far! #Keep after it, you are doing awesome!!!

Will Kimble

[carleshicks]

Thank you Will that means alot coming from you.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I think I would invest in a good airbrush

[carleshicks]

Acctualy I am shopping for one right now. Lynn Dudenbostel suggested the same thing.

[carleshicks]

does anyone have any recomendations for a good detail air brush that won't break the bank. I know nothing about them.

[HoGo]

I have Schneider "Manhattan" model airbrush with 0.3mm nozzle which is particularly good for small touch up. It's double action with a adjustable stop which prevents you from spraying too much of the stain. Price was about $150.
I'd suggest you should look for something like that.
I also own a Rewell Professional model airbrush with 0.5/0.7mm nozzle which is especially good for larger areas.

[David Houchens]

Carles, Having never done this myself, can you describe how you knew when you had just about gotten the lacquer off without terribly disturbing the varnish. (color,brightness,feel,etc...) # Thanks,

[HoGo]

I wonder if the thinner didn't disturb the shellac?
Shellac is dissolved by the lacquer thinner. Actually it is easier to dissolve then lacquer. If it didn't react to thinner it was oil varnish down there.

[Hans]

I've been using an Iwata airbrush for several years, and I'm quite satisfied with it.
If you are wanting to make this look as good as possible, I would mask off the whole instrument with paper and low tack tape except for the top, and using lacquer thinner ( or if you are sure the lacquer is off, better to use alcohol) , get as much of the stain out as you can. Steel wool works well, but keep it out of the inside by taping off the oval hole. Really work at it, and keep from rubbing the red into the yellow orange middle, and keep away from the top binding. When you have finished, and a clean rag dipped in thinner or alcohol will not pull out much stain, sand with 320 grit. Using a fine brush, coat the rosette with two coats of lacquer and then apply the yellow with a rag. When that's dry, airbrush the red to sunburst. follow with a coat of oil varnish to seal the stain, scrape the bindingand rosette, and apply more oil varnish. Sand, and French polish.

[carleshicks]

Carles, Having never done this myself, can you describe how you knew when you had just about gotten the lacquer off without terribly disturbing the varnish. (color,brightness,feel,etc...) # Thanks,

I tested the Lacquere thinner on a piece of the rib that is under the tailpiece and the shellac did not react to the thinner even after rubbing it with a thinner soaked Q-tip for 2 minutes straight. so I knew that what ever the original finish was it would not be damaged by the thinner. I was not sure what condition the original finish was underneath the lacqure but i knew it was still under there because there was a few spots in the overspray that where wore thin and I could see the original color.

[carleshicks]

I've been using an Iwata airbrush for several years, and I'm quite satisfied with it.
If you are wanting to make this look as good as possible, I would mask off the whole instrument with paper and low tack tape except for the top, and using lacquer thinner ( or if you are sure the lacquer is off, better to use alcohol) , get as much of the stain out as you can. Steel wool works well, but keep it out of the inside by taping off the oval hole. Really work at it, and keep from rubbing the red into the yellow orange middle, and keep away from the top binding. When you have finished, and a clean rag dipped in thinner or alcohol will not pull out much stain, sand with 320 grit. Using a fine brush, coat the rosette with two coats of lacquer and then apply the yellow with a rag. When that's dry, airbrush the red to sunburst. follow with a coat of oil varnish to seal the stain, scrape the bindingand rosette, and apply more oil varnish. Sand, and French polish.

What affect would that have on the resale value. as it sits now 75% of the original shellac is intact and about 75% of the original color. Maybey I am over optimistic but I was hoping to be able match and blend in the color and just lightly french polish and then lightly distress to make it look original. I have an assortment of transtint dyes that I was goint to mix with 90% alcohol an 10% 1lb cut Shellac and either airbrush on or brush in to match the original finish. I guess both methods are considered a refinish and will lower the resale value .

[Hans]

Carles, looking at the 4th and 5th pix of the seven, you've gone through the stain. You would have to be an airbrush genius to fix the spots. Trying to get the stain in ONLY the area you need it to be in and not spray over into what is already dark...well good luck. Yes, airbrushes paint a fine line, but chances are slim from my experience that it will come out well. I just had a disaster on the Lloyd A5, drooled on the top before I got a seal coat on the stain. Trying to fix it made it worse, and trying to fix that...well, I got out the alcohol and the steel wool. A much better approach is to try to get the overall color of the top as even as possible (allowing for a lighter middle). That will vastly improve your chances of getting it to look original. Sure, it'll devalue the instrument, but frankly, that's already happened. If you take plenty of time and stain and finish some scrap wood till you "get" the color, your chances of sucess are good. One thing to remember also is that when you get the finish on, the stain always looks lighter than stain before finish. I can't tell you how many times I've thought I had the stain dark enough only to have to go back and make it darker. Good luck in however you approach this and keep us posted.

[carleshicks]

I will definetly keep you posted. I will probably try to touch up the colorless spots by a dry brush technique or with an air brush. If niether of of those methods satisfy my extra critical eye I will re-color and french polish the entire top and then lightly distress to match. Whichever method I choose I will not let it leave my shop till it looks like it is supposed to look at 85 years old.
Thank you fo all the advice, I love this message board.

[Will Kimble]

Just a thought, a lot of the top is still sealed and that stain is intact. #I might try hand rubbing water-based stains on the areas where wood has been exposed, to see if I could get a good match. #The idea being that it would soak into the exposed wood but wouldn't soak into the area that is still sealed. #

And if you can't get a suitable match, then you move on to Hans' suggestion and restain the entire top. #Shouldn't make it any harder to do that. #

Keep us posted. #

Will Kimble

[sunburst]

I'm going to be a fly in the ointment, here, but here goes.

At this point, I think I would preserve as much of the original finish as possible. For the color touch up, I think I'd be better off with an air brush, but there's a good chance I'd find places where I'd need to rub, brush, or dab dye or ink to blend places. Rubbing dyes into small areas and trying to match the surroundings is very difficult, and "always" leaves lines and splotches where the old finish begins and the bare wood ends.

I wouldn't expect, and I'll go out on a limb here and say you can't expect, a perfect color match, but there's always the chance of getting lucky, and by proceeding slowly, I'm pretty sure a good match can be had.
Experience is very valuable in a situation like this; knowing how much too light to leave the color before applying finish over it, knowing how to add more color during the refinish if needed, knowing how to use sunlight, artificial light, etc. while matching; but because of the difficulty that exists and the things that can go wrong, luck is more important for a very good match. Whenever I get a good color match on a repair, I have to be realistic and attribute most of it to luck.

So, basically, I agree. Finish the color touch up, give the top a French polish, and live with any blotches and lines in the color. The damage was done by the poor repair in the 50s, and that's part of the history of the instrument now. "Painting over it" and moving on seems to me to be the best way to preserve what originality is left and still have a decent looking instrument.