The quietness issue

[Uath]

I bought a Johnson octave this Dec. It's the same instrument as the Trinity, Fender, and morgan, and made in the same factory. Great instrument, I love it, as I wrote in another post.
However, there is the quietness issue.
The thing is so non-loud. Other people have written about this (I was a lurker for months before I bought). It is a reoccuring theme.
My Johnson is built like a tank. That's been discussed also, but it is. Thick finish, thick spruce face, as a matter of fact, it has a thick sturdy everything. Is this the reason it's so quiet? Are all octaves quiet? If you're playing around without picks (I like to finger pick, being a long-term banjo player) you can talk in a normal tone and your voice will overpower the octave. Even with finger picks, I feel like you couln't be heard in a jam except as a vague drone.
Like I say, I love the thing. Haven't had any problems. Stays in tune, beautiful, but quiet. I'm playing for myself and my dogs right now, so I'm not worried, but I feel like amplification is the only alternative to being background noise, even with a guitar.

[martinedwards]

I did see a website somewhere where a REALLY light bridge, drilled from beneath to remove ALL the excess weight allowed a mando to be louder as it didn't use up as much of the energy moving the top and more went into the sound produced.

[Celtic Saguaro]

No, not all octaves are quiet!

Granted it's a different price range, but my Petersen holds its own quite well.

Whether you want to spend your money on amplification or a louder instrument isn't always an easy choice. #Since you like the tone of what you have, amplification may be just right for you.

[Bertram Henze]

My Fylde certainly belongs into the thick/sturdy class but is not quiet at all. But I play it with fingerpicking when I want it to be quiet, e.g. for song accompaniment. These machines are designed to be played with a flatpick to release their full potential, and even then it comes out only after the break-in phase. So I suspect one of the following:

- as a banjo player, you are used to get volume effortlessly, while an OM requires harder work at the pick

- the OM might be too new; wait what breaking-in reveals

- try using a flatpick; fingerpicks just don't have an equal attack on both strings of a course

Bertram

[jmcgann]

Quiet is a relative term. I read "the quietest trumpet picks up where the loudest clarinet leaves off".

Playing bare fingered, however, will never get you the volume you can get with picks or a flatpick.

Yes, the TC instruments are not the most "open sounding", but they are good starter instruments. You'll hear quite a contrast in tone and volume if you A/B one with a good single luthier-made OM.

I did see a website somewhere where a REALLY light bridge, drilled from beneath to remove ALL the excess weight allowed a mando to be louder as it didn't use up as much of the energy moving the top and more went into the sound produced.

But the sound IS produced by moving the top- without that, there is not much sound at all- the sound waves have to bounce around inside the box. Maybe the idea is that the lighter bridge allows the top to vibrate more freely-but I'd get some builder's opinions–and I bet they will be all over the map, knowing builders

[JPL]

My Johnson is built like a tank.

You and me both, buddy.

[Walter Newton]

I did see a website somewhere where a REALLY light bridge, drilled from beneath to remove ALL the excess weight allowed a mando to be louder

Frank Ford's article

[martinedwards]

yup, that's the puppy!!

[groveland]

Notice the last note in the article: "Over the years, I've been asked to make this kind of bridge for various instruments, and I've found it has a greater effect on the lighter and more responsive tops of high quality handmade mandolins."

[Celtic Saguaro]

Yep, a lighter top is more effective than a lighter bridge. And then with a light top you risk sagging, just as many older mando tops have done.

[jmcgann]

TC and lower priced OMs seem to be built for durability as the #1 concern- an instrument that won't break easily, the tops don't sink, the necks don't sway (too much most of the time). The tradeoff is gradients of tone and volume, sensitivity to touch, etc. I still think it is great that they are out there for people to develop their addictions before moving onto the higher priced and even more addicting handcrafted OMs...



PS David Grisman and I will come to your house and weep if you amplify

[Uath]

Well, as the trade off goes, I would rather have a durable, sturdy instrument right now than a loud one. I guess a lot of us, myself mainly, have to realize that we'll never be on the Grand Old Opry. Personally, I found that I enjoy playing much more after the dreams of grandeur have subsided. Still, it would be nice to jam with a group and not be totally overpowered.
It just seems that with octaves you have three grades of instruments; the 100$ cheapies from Mexico (no truss rod, exposed-gear tuning pegs, ###### actions,etc...) The 450$ Johnson/TC/Fender/Morgans, and then the $1500-$25,000 majors. As far as the latter goes, I've never spent that much on anything but a house or a car. I'm a schoolteacher, $450 was major enough!

[otterly2k]

Playing bare fingered, however, will never get you the volume you can get with picks or a flatpick.

Prof. McGann speaks truth. Fortunately, most flatpicks are WAY cheap...even some really nice ones are only a couple of bucks. Learn how to use one and you will be able to jam with a group without being overpowered. I hold my own, unamplified, in a group with 2 fiddles+harmonica+mandolin... with power to spare. Yes, I have one of those instruments from your third grouping, but the same holds true for my kit-made OM which is closer to TC's in design, composition and inherent volume. Develop your right hand technique to include flatpicking. You won't regret it.

I also suspect that bertram's observation may be true-- that you may be comparing it to how much sound comes off of a banjo with almost no effort. OM's just don't behave that way. They're not built to.

[otterly2k]

I'd add that it depends a bit on what instruments you're playing with and whether they make room for the OM's voice. In the group I play with... the OM is the low end. We deliberately choose not to have a guitar in the mix, b/c guitars take up SO much chordal and rhythmic space that it can be much harder to figure out where to put the OM line and not get swallowed up.

[allenhopkins]

If you're looking for a more "cutting" sound, you can try picking closer to the bridge. Think about increasing the gauge of your strings slightly; if the OM is built as sturdily as you say, it will take the increased tension.

Picks of course will increase your volume. Taking a more "chordal" approach, so that you get more than one string vibrating, will produce more sound.

Tell everyone else to play softer...

[groveland]

Fender just came out with their line like last year, right? And it's still unavailable in a lot of places... Johnson is the same instrument? Trinity College has been around a good while - How did all this work out? Has anyone got the story on how TC's became Fenders and Johnsons?

[EdSherry]

It's not that "TCs became" anything. #Saga (the owners of the TC brand name) went to Asia (first to Korea, now to China) to get the instruments made. #Other companies, wanting competing instruments to sell, buy from the same manufacturers, with some variations (e.g., Fender offers an OM with a built-in pickup).

[steve V. johnson]

Just look at the other thread here, the one just down the list that Groveland started about improving the TC sound. #It's a good digest of the
tech that gets applied to TCs, and some of GL's results with the mods. #That last part is very valuable, since it's right in line with what he's doing. #Apply those to your J OM and it'll be better.

And, it seems that at the stage of your playing that you describe, the curve of the playing and of the instrument match up pretty well. #As you learn more about it, try fingerpicks &/or a flatpick, you'll pick up more volume and you can add in the modifications, stage by stage, so that by the time you're ready to play with four or so folks, you'll be armed for it...
or... you'll be ready for an instrument that's a bit more sophisticated.

stv