Guitar shaped octave: "f" or oval?

[imstrider]

I know the "F" vs. Oval discussion has been explored in depth regarding mandolins, but what about arch-top, guitar-shaped octaves?

Any thoughts on what to expect? Will "F" holes decrease the warmth and resonance that I like so much about octaves? Or will the size provide enough tonal depth that the projection from the "F" holes is worth it?

With mandolins, there are plenty to try. With GOM's, I need to rely on the larger Cafe community.

Thanks.

(originally posted on "builders". thanks for the tip to post here.)

[EdSherry]

I personally would recommend f-holes for a carved top, and a round (or an oval) hole for a flat-topped. But I'd suggest the best thing is to ask the luthier for his/her recommendation.

[allenhopkins]

IMHO, depens on what you're looking for. In guitars and mandolins, the arch-top, f-hole instrument has a sharp projection and quick decay (what's sometimes called a "bark"). Round-hole instruments have a longer sustain, more of a "ring."

What do you see as the role of this instrument -- melodic lead, chords and rhythm, harmonies and counter-melodies? What kind of music will it be used for? What other instrument is it likely to be working with? (How many prepositions can I end sentences with?)

I don't see many f-hole OM's and mandocellos, but there are many f-hole mandolas. I use my f-hole Eastman mandola for bluegrass and "lead" work on fiddle tunes, my round-hole Sobell for Celtic and klezmer, and for situations where I want a full chordal sound combined with some lead and harmony playing. Neither is better, they're just different.

I think that you really need two, one round-hole, one f-hole...right?

[otterly2k]

the original poster asked specifically about guitar-shaped, arch-top OM's.

In which case, I'd say that just about every one I've ever seen here on the Cafe had f-holes. Does anyone have or remember seeing an oval/round hole on a guitar-shaped arch-top OM?

[first string]

the original poster asked specifically about guitar-shaped, arch-top OM's.

In which case, I'd say that just about every one I've ever seen here on the Cafe had f-holes. #Does anyone have or remember seeing an oval/round hole on a guitar-shaped arch-top OM?

He said guitar shaped, but he didn't specify whether it was going to be a carved-toped or flat-top. I've never seen a flat-top (guitar shaped or not) with f holes, and I've never seen a guitar shaped arched top with an oval hole. I have seen a few arched top oval holed tenor guitars. Could be interesting. One way or another there are enough combinations to make one's head spin.

[otterly2k]

James- look again... here's the poster's opening sentence:
"I know the "F" vs. Oval discussion has been explored in depth regarding mandolins, but what about arch-top, guitar-shaped octaves? "

But anyway, I concur with your summary of what's out there.
KE

[imstrider]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Regarding the carved-top oval, I played a Weber Bridger Octave this past weekend that had a wonderful, rich, buttery tone with good sustain, but the attack/volume and projection was not as crisp as I hoped it would be.

I'm not sure how much tone/sustain the larger body will add (I've heard that it will increase the "growl" of the low end). I guess I'm wondering if the GOM with "F" holes will have the best of both worlds: increased sustain/tone, and a little more pop/projection when compared to the Bridger I played and the Weber Sage that I currently have.

Thanks,
Jed

[first string]

James- look again... here's the poster's opening sentence:
"I know the "F" vs. Oval discussion has been explored in depth regarding mandolins, but what about arch-top, guitar-shaped octaves? "

But anyway, I concur with your summary of what's out there.
KE

Ah hah, I stand corrected. Guess I'll have to work on my close reading.

I think it's hard to predict what kind of tonal response you are going to get. There still aren't that many CBOMs out there. And while the GOM definitely seems to be catching on in a big way, they are still extremely rare. So frankly I don't think there are too many people who have handled a wide variety of these instruments. But luckily there are a few such individuals, and some of them hang around this board. For my part I prefer f holed mandolins, but for the larger mandolin family instruments I like the oval.

[Steve Baker]

Does this one count? This is my Graham McDOnald bouzouki with a carved top. I honestly don't know if it's considered a flat or arched top for the sake of this discussion. Regardless it gives a nice warm sound that just fills my house with realy nice music.

FWIW.

Steve Baker

[otterly2k]

Well, Steve, of course it counts... and just goes to show that there are exceptions to every "rule"... since that's a carved top, I'd say that counts as NOT flat... and that's definitely a round hole, and with a mando-style bridge not a pin bridge. So they DO exist... thanks for putting up the photo.


I think point first string makes above is right on. Relative to mandolins, there just aren't that many OM's out there, and even fewer GOM's. They are not standardized either, partly because they aren't associated with a single type of music, sound, player, or maker to drive the marketing of these in a particular direction.

What goes into making the sound of an instrument is so complex, and only partly predictable. So many variables make a difference, but there is still some mystery to how they combine to make the whole greater than the sum of parts.

So my response to your question, Jed... is that in theory, a GOM with F holes MAY have the "best of both worlds" combo that you are seeking. I would say, though, that it will come down to the particular instrument as to whether it WILL have those qualities - and also that there could also be other OMs of any shape and hole configuration that might also have those qualities.

I hosted a CBOM gathering in Philly last June and we had more OM's in-house than probably anywhere outside of Zoukfest. It was amazing to see and hear the variation among instruments. The good news is... it's all GOOD! Similar creatures with different personalities. Unfortunately, there were no GOM's in attendance... still haven't played one of those.

sorry-- no clear answers. gotta try 'em and see.

[PseudoCelt]

Paul Shippey in the UK makes a round-holed guitar-shaped archtop bouzouki, with a flat rosewood back. It can be seen here:

http://www.paulshippey.co.uk/bouzoukis.htm

I haven't played one, but they look great. If they're as good as his mandolins, they probably sound amazing too.

Patrick

[Ken Sager]

I'd imagine an arch-top oval-hole GOM would also differ from an arch-top F-hole GOM by having X bracing instead of parallel(ish) bars. Of course F-holed instruments could also have X bracing, but I don't know if anybody is doing that.

That said, my arch-top, F-holed, parallel braced GOM has loads of sustain, warmth, and projection. It's possible to have it all.

Love to all,
Ken

[Ken Sager]

I hosted a CBOM gathering in Philly last June and we had more OM's in-house than probably anywhere outside of Zoukfest. #It was amazing to see and hear the variation among instruments. #The good news is... it's all GOOD! #Similar creatures with different personalities. #Unfortunately, there were no GOM's in attendance... still haven't played one of those. #

Host another and I'll try to show up with my Bussman GOM.

Best,
Ken

[otterly2k]

Count on it, Ken. #There was a lot of interest in having this be an annual event. #It was lots of fun, great music, great company, great instruments. #Probably this summer. I'd LOVE to have a chance to check out a Bussman GOM.
KE

[Jim M.]

I have an Old Wave GOM (f-holes) and a Crump oval-hole 'zouk, and I really like them both. They are definitely different critters though. The Crump has a big, round, warm, open sound. The GOM has a more focused sound, punchy with less sustain. I'd say it has plenty of warmth, it's just a different kind of warmth than the Crump. I tend to use the Crump for Irish and old time stuff; I tend to use the GOM for rock and blues, but I wouldn't hesitate to use either for any genre.

If you're a guitar player, I'd suggest comparing a flat-top guitar to an arch-top guitar to get some idea of the differences.

But really, you should buy both kinds.