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Thread: On stage banter

  1. #51
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    1. Backstories:

    People are usually entertained by a story that relates to the song you're about to play. For instance, in one trio I'm in, the soloist plays blues harp. We play several songs by Gus Cannon's Jug Stompers that were written by Gus's harp guy, Noah Lewis. Noah's claim to fame was that he played two harps at once: one with his mouth and one with his nose. When people hear that, they groan in horror and delight, and the ad libbing always ends up being a lot of fun.

    In another trio, we play a tune that most folks don't know was written by Carole King. And even fewer know that she originally wrote it for a forgotten girl group called the Cookies, for whom it pretty much flopped. Then a corny little Brit group had a go at it, and the rest is rock 'n' roll history. . . . and we launch into "Something Tells Me I'm Into Something Good."

    Almost every song has a story, and most people would rather hear the story that watch a band fumble around with straps.

    2. Spokespeople:

    The band leader isn't always the spokesperson. Tony Trishka never says a word. In the Dead, it was almost always Bob who talked to the audience, not Jerry. So you won't be overstepping your role by stepping up to the mic. In fact, the rest of the band will appreciate it.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Work with your audience they'll be different every gig and sometimes you can find someone in the audience you can work with in particular.
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Takes much practice to get rehearsed banter to sound natural. I've worked as part of the stage crew with one of the biggest folk musician/ comedians in the UK (probably not known in the US) and his act always looks entirely spontaneous. He always has at least three wedge/floor monitors, ostensibly for the musical bits, but they are really to support his extensive script.

  4. #54
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    ...When Earl Scruggs put down his banjo and picked up the guitar, to play on gospel quartet numbers, doubt anyone in the audience jumped up and shouted "Tacky! Pick up yore damn banjer, Earl!"...
    Nobody ever yelled that at Bill Monroe when he switched to a different mandolin either or is it only tacky if your switching to a different instrument? Is it OK if you switch out one mandolin for another one?
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  6. #55
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    He always has at least three wedge/floor monitors, ostensibly for the musical bits, but they are really to support his extensive script.
    Hey, that's not a gig, it's a Shakespeare play...
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  7. #56
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Back in the day, I occasionally referred to a now-hard-to-find Oak Publications book by Texas balladeer Hermes Nye:

    How to be a Folksinger
    How to Sing and Present Folksongs;
    or The Folksinger's Guide;
    or Eggs I Have Laid

    The overall message is that if you want to perform before audiences, it's best to be entertaining. That means putting on a show. That means developing a program of some sort: a script or at least a solid outline. As a street-corner busker, I needed no patter, only an axe and voice loud enough to override traffic noise. On-stage requires a more sustained presence. And singers should possess good diction and elocution; no mush-mouths.

    Back in the day, my partner and I played for tips in small unlicensed clubs in Manhattan. No license meant no singing on stage. So I sat on stage playing while my partner sang from back in the audience. Our 'patter' between songs was yelling back and forth with bad jokes heralding the next song. That worked for us. YMMV.

    Y'all must decide who you're playing for: yourself, or others? Displays of virtuosity are not necessarily entertaining. (I don't care how many eggs you can juggle.) Tolerable playing, good singing, and something of a storyline, will take you far.

  8. #57
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypoxia View Post
    Back in the day, I occasionally referred to a now-hard-to-find Oak Publications book by Texas balladeer Hermes Nye:
    You must be the other person in the world who owns How To Be A Folksinger!

    Some really good tips in the book, though things have changed since it was published in 1965 (the year I was graduated from college, and drafted into the infantry). On p.67 Nye writes, sorta pertinent to this thread, "Remember, you're a singer, not a comedian. You're trying to be entertaining and informative, not excruciatingly funny...Try out everything for size, on live audiences. Keep the things that work for you and, no matter how it wounds your pride, throw out the rest."

    Makes sense, 53 years later. And Nye, can you believe it, has had dozens of his songs put on YouTube. Here's a link to a YouTube search.
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  9. #58
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    You must be the other person in the world who owns How To Be A Folksinger!
    It's beside me at this very moment. P.68 has good advice on encores.

    Nye collected many songs and cut numerous albums but never was a star. I'd advise any would-be performers to carefully note how successful but not-star performers comport themselves onstage. Superstars can get away with a lot, as I saw in drunken Clapton show. Non-stars surviving at it are workable models. Learn from the survivors.

    I like classifying stuff. I've already triaged musicians into 1) pros, 2) serious non-pros, 3) plinkers. I'm the latter. Now I'll classify music: 1) ritual, 2) background, 3) serious concert, 4) fun show. I liken the first and last to storytelling, propelling folks' with sounds and visuals. When an audience sees and hears you, what story builds in their minds?

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  11. #59

    Default Re: On stage banter

    A live show is a performance. If there is no performance, then the audience might just as well be listening to a recording, the actual musicians aren't providing anything extra just by turning up.

    A performance requires some form of communication between performers and audience. Some musical performers can achieve this just by playing, but that's a very rare ability. Most need to do something more.

    Talking direct to the audience is one way (but not the only way) to do this. Musicians also move around while playing (that can communicate to the audience). Stadium rock bands add in light shows and fireworks. You have to find what works for you.

    One important tip though - if you do speak to the audience, you won't communicate anything unless they actually hear you! I'm constantly amazed how many musicians I hear who have great microphone technique while singing but forget it all when they speak. So they start talking during the applause (so the audience doesn't hear the first part), then turn their heads toward and away from the mic so that the rest drops in and out. Muttering and mumbling shyly doesn't work well either.

    So if the audience stops listening when you speak to them between songs, it might just be because they can't hear what you're saying! It wouldn't hurt to rehearse your patter, with a band member at the back of the hall to tell you whether they actually heard what you said.

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  13. #60
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfChris View Post
    If there is no performance, then the audience might just as well be listening to a recording, the actual musicians aren't providing anything extra just by turning up.
    If that is so, I don't understand how classical concerts and pub sessions work, because the musicians just sit there and play, absorbed in the act, in both environments.

    I think a real musician has still a fascination (attractive or repulsive) about him by his sheer presence. All the production trickery involved in recording is not possible here, this is the real thing, a real person who hears your applause if he deserves it or whom you can pour your pint over if he doesn't. He is proof that a person can do this, and that you could do it, too, eventually.
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  15. #61

    Default Re: On stage banter

    Classical concerts are definitely a performance - going to one is nothing like listening to a recording! Or at least they usually are - I've been to at least one solo piano recital where I felt cheated, because it might as well have been a robot up their on the keys.

    So far as pub sessions are concerned, they don't claim to be a performance. If you had to pay to be a spectator at a pub session, you'd want more than you currently get. And even so, I see quite a high percentage of pub session players performing, in the sense of communicating with the audience.

    As I said, you can communicate just with music if you have the knack, but most people don't. If you don't communicate (somehow) to a paying audience, they quickly lose interest. Communication is subtle though - if you think about the bluegrass "dance" round a single microphone, some bands do it in a way which communicates their joy in the music, whilst others only communicate their fear of tripping over

  16. #62

    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfChris View Post
    A live show is a performance. If there is no performance, then the audience might just as well be listening to a recording, the actual musicians aren't providing anything extra just by turning up. ...
    Except... it depends on what one went there for: a "performance", or a live *music* performance.

    Just about any live music event I've bothered to go to in recent decades, if I'm there as an audience member, I've went there specifically with one goal in mind - to watch the musicians' hands to see *how* the musicians are playing what they're playing and to hear/see the interaction between the different instruments. I'm there to learn something by watching how they play.

    Can't get that from a recording, at least not in the 'old' days before the proliferation of YouTube videos of various live performances.

    Even in social settings such as dances or just hanging out with other people, my focus is still always on the music itself. Not the between-tunes banter. IMO, talk is like TV commercials - undesirable (unless you need to make a quick run to the kitchen or bathroom).

    I realize this is probably a minority viewpoint.

  17. #63
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfChris View Post
    If you had to pay to be a spectator at a pub session, you'd want more than you currently get. And even so, I see quite a high percentage of pub session players performing, in the sense of communicating with the audience.
    Actually, you have to pay for your beer and drink more of it than you'd normally do, or else the business model would not work for the pub. But I see your point about subtle ways of communication.
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  19. #64
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    Just about any live music event I've bothered to go to in recent decades, if I'm there as an audience member, I've went there specifically with one goal in mind - to watch the musicians' hands to see *how* the musicians are playing what they're playing and to hear/see the interaction between the different instruments. I'm there to learn something by watching how they play.
    I think this was the recipe Mike Oldfield followed in the 80s. Basically a composer who liked to play anything he could find in a recording studio, his way of performing live was to cut out a storefront window, call it a stage and keep on doing what he liked best. The audience seemed to appreciate the opportunity to watch the maestro at work.

    But you have to be very good at what you do to get away with it.
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  21. #65

    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfChris View Post
    ... If you had to pay to be a spectator at a pub session, you'd want more than you currently get. ...
    Hmm. I have not personally ever seen any pub sessions that let spectators just sit there on the premises all night for free and listen to the music - instead, you're expected to order/buy something (a form of payment to be a spectator) to justify your presence in that business establishment. A pub is not a charity, it's a place of business that makes money by selling food and beverages. At least the ones I've seen over the years. Maybe it's different elsewhere?

    Edited to add: Oops I see that Bertram has already made the above point while I was typing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfChris View Post
    ... As I said, you can communicate just with music if you have the knack, ...
    Nowadays those are the only type of musicians I bother to go see in live performances. If they can't handle the music alone, without fooling the audience via trickery and costumes and fancy stage sets and stories/jokes, then I'm not interested in hearing them at all. Pretty simple, really - either they're up to snuff as musicians and can keep their audience's attention via their music, or they're subpar musicians who require 'other' means of keeping the audience from wandering off.

    Then again, I might be jaded, coming from a family of musicians where it was expected to play well or don't bother.

    An aside, about performances: some of the all-time 'best' (most engaging as well as technically proficient) bands I've ever heard have been bar bands playing rock-n-roll or reggae or jazz - when they've got the chops, they know their stuff, the beat is good, the bass is groovin', the band members are all in sync with each other, the audience is there to dance, it's all good just the way it is - no 'enhancements' or contrived 'performance' required, and no need for banter, the music itself holds the audience's attention. And no, at least in our case, there's no alcohol involved (I haven't drank in decades) and yup I've actually recorded some of that type of stuff (little Sony Walkman cassette recorder, remember those? lol) and listened to it later, usually still sound good even without any visuals or ambience.

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  23. #66
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Classical-orchestral: We see the conductor waving about more-or-less. I saw Leonard Bernstein conduct -- he performed. I saw Michael Tilson Thomas conduct. He conducted. Nice music but we could have listened on the radio. I saw a clip some years back of a decorative girl wearing almost nothing and fiddling Tschaikovsky with great virtuosity at Hollywood Bowl. Fine music and fun to watch -- a performance.

    Non-classical: I saw many groups play my then-local Sonoma County fair -- Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Ladysmith Black Mambazo, Hoyt Axton, Texas Tornados, The Bobs (new-wave acapella), Dave Grisman. They all performed; moved around; acted like they enjoyed doing it. Randy Newman just bitched about his life, probably resentful that his agent booked him to county fairs. Years later a local hall featured The Bobs and Bela Fleck. The Bobs phoned in their show. Bela with the Wootens... did wonderful stuff onstage, then wandered in the audience playing acoustically (drumming on instrument cases), and played for an extra hour. Smokin'!!

    John Renbourn merely sat and played. If you're John Renbourn, no more is needed. His workshops were livelier. If you're not John Renbourn, you need to always be livelier.

    I saw an evening with Sammy Cahn, a major lyricist of the pre-rock era. A fellow off to the side tinkled piano keys. Sammy quietly talked about his lyrics and sang many. Not a bad singer; not a great singer; adequate. And quietly compelling. A quiet, dignified, absorbing performance -- with a storyline of pieces of his career.

    No, patter isn't a necessity. But give an audience reason to hang around for the next piece. Involve them. Grab ears AND eyeballs. Entertain THEM, not yourself.

  24. #67

    Default Re: On stage banter

    Half the reason to see Ron Thomasson and the Dry Branch Fire Squad is for Ron's stories. But no one could suggest that the band is not capable of carrying the show on the music alone.

    Doc Watson's introductions always added to the songs. The Legacy tour with David Holt where David interviewed Doc about his life as they played was compelling and wonderful.

    I saw Del and Dawg a year or so ago. Dawg talked up most of the songs, telling stories on himself and Del between songs through the show. It added a lot. Two old guys having a great time and sharing it with us.

    Bela and Abigail told stories. Bela came across as a warm, friendly amusing human being. His story of the Tennessee Highway patrol man who made him admit Earl Scruggs is the best banjo player in the world to avoid a ticket was priceless.

    I saw Bobby Osborn a few years a go. He would cut up and just have massive fun on stage. Richard Bennett was playing guitar and seemed kind of impatient with Bobby telling Monroe stories but people in the audience came to Bobby after the set and requested more Monroe stories during his next set. They were happy to have a little less music and a few more stories.

    These are some of the best musicians in the world. Despite their immense musical skill, I felt that their introductions and stories always added to their sets. I would not have asked any of them to talk less and play more let alone take a break while they talked. And I would not have missed any of their shows for all the world.

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  26. #68

    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypoxia View Post
    ... acted like they enjoyed doing it. ...
    Nothing wrong with that, especially when it's real, not just faking it as part of an 'act'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypoxia View Post
    ... did wonderful stuff onstage, then wandered in the audience playing acoustically ...
    One of the weekend dance bands we went to see/hear every month or so for a while, a couple years ago, some of their electric instrument players would always take a stroll out into the busy dance floor about once a night (wireless stuff, no cables), I thought that was pretty cool, and the audience loved it of course, makes the audience feel like they're part of the action instead of just being spectators. Turns out the band had started doing that for purely practical reasons - the band leader wanted to hear for himself how the band sounded from the audience & dancers' point of view. I think it's cool when a practical utilitarian thing like a clandestine soundcheck, has additional benefits to the audience as well.

    That was, in fact, rock-n-roll, but just a normal happy dance floor at a regional establishment, that particular band was one of the better ones there & they played there regularly, although not some rarely-seen Elvis or something, so there was little danger of some crazed groupie pulling the buttons off the guitarist's shirt while strolling around while playing. (Any such fan activity, questions etc, could easily be accomplished at other points during the gig, the musicians did not run off & hide after the gig like the world-famous 'stars' do.) Pretty nice atmosphere & decent audience, worked out good for both the audience and the musicians.

  27. #69
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Actually, you have to pay for your beer and drink more of it than you'd normally do, or else the business model would not work for the pub. But I see your point about subtle ways of communication.
    That situation varies. At one Irish session I co-hosted a few years ago, we got our first round of drinks free. At a mixed Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish session I attend now, the session leader (a fiddler) gets a free meal. We're occupying valuable space in a restaurant, and between that and the perks for the host, there is a little of the "performance" aspects that sneaks into what should be just a group of like-minded amateurs gathering to share some tunes. If there is too much time between sets, too much conversation, the leader will crank up a tune. There is a subtle pressure to keep the music going, and not screw up too much.

    What's interesting is that this dynamic changes completely with the same group of people, when we're kicked out of the session venue for one month due to TV football or some other event, and we play at someone's house. Much more relaxed, more conversation between tunes. I prefer that house session setting, but it's rough on the hosts... dishes to clean up, etc.

    Back to performance and banter. I remember reading somewhere that the very successful Irish trad band Lúnasa started as a group of very good musicians who played in concerts staring at their feet. The band didn't take off until flute player Kevin Crawford joined the group. Kevin is a live wire, always joking with other band members and telling stories between tunes. Which is really critical in a band like that with no singers, all instrumental tunes. If you've ever seen a live Lúnasa performance you'll know what I mean. The musicianship of everyone is astounding, but Kevin drives the show. You need someone like that in a band like this.

    Regarding switching instruments, I think that depends on the genre of music and what's expected. Again referencing Lúnasa... all instrumentals, what are you gonna do to shake things up?

    It's partly done through tune arrangements, where different instruments will come in at different times. But on both albums and performance, they'll usually throw in one or two sets where three of the melody players will drop their usual instruments (flute, fiddle, pipes) and all three will play a tune on low F whistles, just for variety. At a local concert a couple of years ago, I talked to the piper in the group Cillian Vallely and asked about the low F whistles. He said that yeah, it's mainly just to break things up and keep things interesting in the middle of show.

  28. #70
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    That situation varies. At one Irish session I co-hosted a few years ago, we got our first round of drinks free. At a mixed Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish session I attend now, the session leader (a fiddler) gets a free meal.
    Actually, I meant the punters, not the musicians. Our situation varies, of course, as you described.
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    My wife and I recently saw I'm With Her in a great, small venue. The music was beyond awesome, and watching the performance and interaction among the musicians was amazing. We had a lovely night.

    The one thing I missed was a sense of connection to the songs. I found in general there was not a lot of narrative to the songs, and in the absence of "a story in music," not a lot of background that invited me into the song on a deeper level.

    OTOH, if you ever want to watch an epic entertainer/raconteur, take a few notes watching Jimmy Buffett. Yes, Buffett. For a self-admitted mediocre musician, he's a fabulous entertainer. Mind you, he is able to ignore some of the really excellent advice on this thread; he is, after all, Buffett. BUT, watch what he DOES do in a positive sense. Crowd connection (usually referencing experiences in local settings), simple little stories, some back and forth banter with the band as a set-up; he makes it all work. Clearly his time hanging with Steve Goodman, Gordon Lightfoot, Jesse Winchester, and the like all gave him models and approaches that he fine tunes to this very day.

    The takeaway for me is either find your voice, or find someone else who already has to be up front.
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    Default Re: On stage banter

    Fine line between dreadful banter and engaging the audience. Duffey set the standard for bluegrassers....with engaging the audience.
    Bob

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    Default Re: On stage banter

    My all time favorite is "We've had a few requests but we're supposed to play for another hour".

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