What is Irish Mandolin?

[danb]

I'd call myself the same thing.. Mandolin first, banjo after. Interesting that you mention Gary as a mandolin player first- His speed and ornament fluidity sounds more like an Irish tenor player to me. One of my all-time favorite players.

[Dagger Gordon]

There is an interview with Gary on mandolin.org.uk where he discusses his different approach to mandolin and banjo.

There are other interviews as well, including Simon Mayor, Luke Plumb and myself.

[arbarnhart]

Irish mandolin? Would that be one made by someone with a good Irish name like Michael Kelly?

running, ducking and hiding...

[Clyde Clevenger]

I learned most of my Irish tunes from a piper, Todd Denman, almost thirty years ago. We played in a band together for three years and Todd would always bring a new "gem" to practice. I didn't have the hand speed to play most of the orniments, only a few triplets, but I learned his rhythm and the pulse of the music. He alway said I had to think like a piper, think in phrases, not individual notes or even measures. I've been playing regularly for step dancers for almost thirty years now, often just solo mandolin and seem to please even the stud dancers. I quit trying to go to sessions as I have seen the "cold back" too many times and even a big ugly guy like me can be sensitive.

[Ken Berner]

Clyde, Cold back, cold shoulder, cold eyes; all too cruel for the lover of the music. Not all can be "hot" pickers and some with the cold parts aren't all that hot, either. Guess we just have to grin and bear it; take it with a grain of salt.

[jackofall]

jmcgann sums up a whole lot of it.

Fiddle and pipes are the real core of ITM, and pretty much all other instruments are johnny-come-lately by comparison. The trad approach is mostly unison melody, with minimal harmony or accomaniment. With that in mind, whatever is perceived as the 'correct' or 'definitive' style for any instrument in ITM other than the big two sacred ones is open to debate.

Tin whistle players (of which I am one) emulate pipe techniques such as rolls, cuts, crans etc. Purists often advocate using these techniques to separate notes and to execute triplets rather than tonguing (when you go 'tuh tuh tuh' to separate notes as you blow) because it keeps the effect closer to that of uillean pipes.

Similarly, tenor banjo and mando players (I play both to a modest level) emulate many fiddle effects and techniques - again, the trademark Irish triplet is the example. In the case of these two instruments the unlimited sustain of the fiddle has to be achieved by tremolo - therefore a distinctive banjo/mando sound emerges.

I will prolly get flamed for this, but in Irish music the techniques for tenor banjo and mando are really very similar. There are variations due to obvious differences in string tension (drop GDAE on tenor banjo is VERY slack indeed) and tone, but generally the starting point for both is to try to approximate what a fiddle does.

Mike's question is a bit can-of-worms because Irish music is not just ITM. The mandolin is also used extensively in Irish and Scottish (Celtic) folk music. And then there is the no-man's-land in between, where people like Barney McKenna of The Dubliners thrive - traditional tunes played in a style that varies from the 'pure-drop' approach.

Barney is largely responsible for defining most people's idea of Irish banjo, and this has been achieved just since the 1960s. Similarly, Irish mandolin is a relatively young, and evolving thing.

If I had to sum up Irish banjo and mandolin I'd say they are fundamentally a way for fretted instrument players to pluck along with fiddle tunes. Anything over and above that is still in flux, and very much a matter of personal interpretation.

[danb]

I still say "pure drop" is just an invention to disguise an opinion of what is best as a cultural truth, but there you are

[Dagger Gordon]

Jackofall,

You may well think fiddle and pipes are the real action, but I don't think you could say the harp is a 'Johnny-come-lately'.

The harp has been known in Ireland from around the 12th century, and O'Carolan lived from 1670 to 1738.

I like the sound of the mandolin and harp, and in my own playing I sometimes go for a harp-like feel. My extra bass D on my Sobell 10 string mandolin is a help there.

We also share the fact that we are not heard at our best in a session situation.
What sometimes is referred to as 'Celtic' guitar (usually a fingerstyle solo style as opposed to rhythm guitar) seems to tend toward the harp repertoire a lot, but I rarely see much mention of it here.

[mikeyes]

We have a harp in our session group now and indeed, the combination was very nice along with fiddle. Our harper only plays O'Carolan and a few airs for now but it sounds great as does harp, guitar, and mandolin accompaniment of a song.

I think that that points out the versatility of the mandolin. I do have to question the statement that banjo and mandolin are indistinguishable as far as technique goes. Triplets are OK on the mandolin but they don't have the impact of a triplet on the banjo. In addition, the mandolin is a double coursed instrument with a lot more tonal power than a banjo but less volume. Banjos can't sound sweet the way a mandolin can and the use of double stops, chord effects, and certain "rolls" done by hammeron-pull-off combinations is harder to do on the banjo. They are two distinct instruments that require different fingering and a different mind-set.

Of course, the way a lot of banjo players who are not mandolin players use the instrument is quite limited in my opinion as there are transfers of technique from mandolin to banjo that make the banjo sound better. The reverse is not as true mostly because there are very few techniques used by pure banjo players after you get past the triplet. Gerry O'Connor uses crosspicking, speed picking, and several other techniques derived from electric guitar (at least according to him when I talked to him about it.) That is how he achieves the sound and drive that he gets. He also uses cgda tuning and a capo which helps him quite a bit. Look at this Youtube cut of Bela and Gerry and note that he is capoed at the second fret. You could get the same energy and presentation on a mandolin in standard tuning, but not on a banjo in GDAE tuning.

Dagger,

I was listening to the Scottish style mandolin on the site you mentioned. I like it!

Mel Bay Banjosessions

[danb]

Banjo and mandolin are vastly different in technique. You can get a basic sound using banjo technique on one, but it just then sounds like a banjo that's higher pitched

[jackofall]

Banjo and mandolin are vastly different in technique. You can get a basic sound using banjo technique on one, but it just then sounds like a banjo that's higher pitched

You see that's where the 'newness' of the two to Irish music comes in. It is likely that both of them started off tring to play fiddle parts. What are now becoming accepted as distinct Irish banjo technique and distinct Irish mando technique have been emergent as the qualities of the two instruments have become more widely recognised.

I was clearly remiss in neglecting harp. To be honest I rarely see harps in sessions in Ireland, and I have *never* seen one in a session in England! I guess they may be less portable, and there are probably fewer players these days.

Certainly one less since the passing of Derek Bell...

[jackofall]

I still say "pure drop" is just an invention to disguise an opinion of what is best as a cultural truth, but there you are

Hmm... noe THAT one is a debate for the chiff & fipple whistle board - if you have a hard hat handy. I nearly got crucified for saying something like that once...

[danb]

That's my litmus test for wether or not a session is ever worth coming to again. Drop that one and see who goes white with rage- those are the people generally to avoid

[danb]

Probably the nicest instrument duet sound to my ear is banjo & accordian or banjo & pipes. Stacatto & legato together..

arguably gerald trimble created quite a bit of what has now become mandolin technique in this sort of music with his cittern/bouzouki recordings. A lot of that technique transfers more readily to mandolin than banjo stuff.

[Paul Kotapish]

Dagger's right about the harp, and some zealous traditionalists argue that beyond the harp and the human voice and perhaps the bones, all the other instruments are latecomers.

Although I've been attempting to play tunes of Irish lineage on the mandolin for about 30 years now, I long ago gave up the idea that I was playing actual "Irish" music. I've had the opportunity to play with some great fiddlers and pipers over the years, and two things became clear to me at some point. First, that the mandolin would forever remain a bit of a novelty instrument, and secondly, no matter how hard I tried to emulate the rhythmic pulse and the rolls, crans, slurs, triplets, and cuts of the pipers and fiddlers I was learning from, I would always play with a pronounced American accent.

I am at peace with those realities and continue to play (and even perform) a lot of jigs, reels, hornpipes, and polkas that started out in Ireland, but I'm not trying to kid anyone that it is in any way authentic. I really love Irish music and it makes me happy to play the tunes and to try to evoke the essence of them with my best understanding of the idiom, but in my mind, anyway, I will always differentiate between the playing of Irish tunes and the playing of Irish music.

I leave it up to the listeners to decide whether it worth bothering with on its own terms.

One guy's opinion.

PK

[Dagger Gordon]

Hey Paul,

If you're good enough for Kevin Burke I don't think you have to worry.

As regards numbers of harp players, I know heaps of them. For some reason they're mostly females - I'm not certain why that is.

Sometimes they show up playing accompaniment at sessions, but they're really best heard doing their own thing.

[zoukboy]

Sometimes they [harpers] show up playing accompaniment at sessions, but they're really best heard doing their own thing.

like us mando players? I love playing Irish music on mandolin, but I don't like trying to make it work in a session with any more than 2-3 people.

[zoukboy]

arguably gerald trimble created quite a bit of what has now become mandolin technique in this sort of music with his cittern/bouzouki recordings. A lot of that technique transfers more readily to mandolin than banjo stuff.

I think Gerald's influence is really limited to this country (and perhaps to Canada?). I have yet to meet an Irish player influenced by him...

[zoukboy]

I still say "pure drop" is just an invention to disguise an opinion of what is best as a cultural truth, but there you are

I'm not sure I understand this... Dan?

[Keith Newell]

Great topic! As a participant in an Irish jam that has been going on for about 16 years I have seen many trends and heard a lot of great players. Here in the Portland Oregon area we have many famous transplanted Irish musicians and their influence on the local music has been big. I have played the mandolin the whole time and all this time I listen to CD's and any media I can for Irish music. Over time I have developed a style that has been influenced by the fiddle of Kevin Burke, Guitar of Jed Foley and Mícheál Ó Domhnaill, the flute of Matt Malloy, bands like Solas, Craeb Rua, John Carty, Tim Obrien etc. We have a traveler show up every few weeks and about half of them are from Ireland and I tend to listen intently and pick up what and how they articulate the tune and in the data bank it goes.
When playing I notice the style I play with is influenced by who or where I learned the tune. Many tunes I don't even know their name or where I got them. But the jist of this is I don't always play in one style. The mandolin is capable of so much and realy can be heard in a session very well. I am speaking from experience on some sessions that we had 16 to 20 people.
Mandolin in the U.S. is being influenced by recordings of the the early players like Mullhavile (spelling?) and modern bands like Lunasa that tour here. I really love to listen to Dervish and their Mandola/Bouzoukie work. Dan Beimborns CD Shatter the Calm is very good and does incompase several styles if you listen to it and I am sure he has picked them up the same way, by listening and direct contact with the players.
Keith

[Bertram Henze]

I still say "pure drop" is just an invention to disguise an opinion of what is best as a cultural truth, but there you are

I'm not sure I understand this... Dan?

Maybe I understand it, at least from my own view. Whoever tries to play irish but is not irish himself, involuntarily forms two pictures in his mind: what is "real irish" and what is himself. From then on forever, he'll be looking for that irish musical reality but never find it. I think the reason is there is no such thing as one true irish reality (or pure drop as Dan calls it); instead, there are as many viewpoints as there are people, and I have learned the viewpoints of irish people are the most variant and open-minded, because they don't have to look for reality, they just have them - each has his own. So anyone's picture of "real irish" is not neccessarily wrong, it's just different from other people's pictures, and that's all it can be compared to. E.g. The Dubliners and The Chieftains - are they from the same country? which one is Ireland? And that's ok for me; after all, music is for happiness, not for reality.

Maybe I got it all wrong - Dan might correct me here, but that is how I understand it.
Authenticity, for me, is not a match between playing and "real playing". Anyone is authentic, whose playing matches his personality, i.e. who is not trying to represent something he isn't. Any instrument that fits the player is ok; then, even if it is late for history, it is at least not late for life.

Bertram

[danb]

I think "pure drop" is all opinion. The reality of it has changed vastly from the historical situation. Since the early 1900s, there have been recordings in circulation, and though there are still some players who learned from an unbroken line of handed-down techniques & styles, folks simply travel more, play with more people, and listen to CDs and tapes and the radio. I've yet to meet a musician from Ireland who would treat a style as "pure drop", meaning static and set at some time in the past.

My point is that using "traditional" or "pure drop" as a cructch to say "the way I'm playing is more correct" injects a poison directly into the heart of the thing. It's tantamount to the player saying "you're not playing that tune the way I prefer, and my preference is right, and yours is wrong".

I play a mixed bag of stuff but that's not really the point- the idea of a session is to have fun and play some tunes together, so in the worthwhile ones everyone will listen to each other, get a sense of what they have in common, and play some music. Somone playing that "Traditional" card is to me a power-play to set themselves up as the authority in the room to dictate what should be done, which is an affront to the communal fun of it all.

[Dagger Gordon]

I wouldn't worry about it, guys.

It's interesting to look at the Scottish piping competition scene. For some years now, pipers from New Zealand, America and elsewhere have literally been beating Scots at their own game at major piping events held in Scotland.

It's more than just getting the notes right, of course. These guys come to Scotland every year and get a feel of the place.
I think the same is true of Irish trad. If you're serious about it, you've got to visit Ireland itself to get a feel for how the music is part of the culture of the people. They generally don't take themselves too seriously at all in my experience and will cheerfully add bits of country or pop if they feel like it.

So you get bands like Moving Hearts and Planxty, adding other styles and cultures to the mix. Even the Chieftains - look at all those albums they've done in the last few years which haven't been very Irish trad. They know what they're doing, though.

Dan is right. What it's largely about is the 'communal fun of it all'. Exactly! #It's also known as the craic.

[Bertram Henze]

Dan is right. What it's largely about is the 'communal fun of it all'. Exactly! It's also known as the craic.

I see we are thinking in the same direction. Craic - I wish I had thought of that! ceol agus craic: can't separate them.

Bertram

[zoukboy]

I think "pure drop" is all opinion. The reality of it has changed vastly from the historical situation. Since the early 1900s, there have been recordings in circulation, and though there are still some players who learned from an unbroken line of handed-down techniques & styles, folks simply travel more, play with more people, and listen to CDs and tapes and the radio. I've yet to meet a musician from Ireland who would treat a style as "pure drop", meaning static and set at some time in the past.

My point is that using "traditional" or "pure drop" as a crutch to say "the way I'm playing is more correct" injects a poison directly into the heart of the thing. It's tantamount to the player saying "you're not playing that tune the way I prefer, and my preference is right, and yours is wrong".

I play a mixed bag of stuff but that's not really the point- the idea of a session is to have fun and play some tunes together, so in the worthwhile ones everyone will listen to each other, get a sense of what they have in common, and play some music. Somone playing that "Traditional" card is to me a power-play to set themselves up as the authority in the room to dictate what should be done, which is an affront to the communal fun of it all.

Dan,

I see your point but I don't think that the concept of "the pure drop" is synonymous with "poisoning" or "using as a crutch." I think what you are describing are bad experiences you've had with individuals in sessions, people who abuse the notions of tradition.

IMHO what trips people up is thinking of "the" style or of "the tradition" or "the pure drop", as if it were one thing - one that can be analyzed musically.

I think of tradition as attitude as much as anything else. One that respects those who have come before and accepts the responsibility of learning that and integrating said knowledge into a personal approach that honors precedent while carrying it forward, and having a great time with other musicians while we're at it.

That said, there will probably always be people who don't like what players like you and me do because we're from outside the cultural context of the music. Most of the "begrudgers" I've run into are from outside the tradition, too, and who attempt to set themselves up as authorities. But that is not the music's or the culture's fault, nor is it indicative of "tradition" or "the pure drop". It's just a few petty tyrants trying to throw their weight around. Human nature, pecking order politics.

Sounds like you've either run into a few individuals who are confused about their opinion being more correct than yours, or perhaps they just didn't like your playing. Both have happened to me but I just say "to hell with the begrudgers" and enjoy myself in spite of them.

It's all a big conversation that we're having with the music and each other. The fact that there are a few bullys who try to dominate that conversation is not a reflection of the conversation itself.