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Thread: Chicken or Egg?

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    I know this sounds like a joke, or a rhetorical question at best...but I'm quite serious. Do I focus on "learning to play tunes on the mandolin" or do I spend my time "learning to play the mandolin"? I'm a beginner (a few months) and seem to spend an inordinate amount of time on scales that I can't figure out what to do with, or I learn a new tune that is just mimicry and I don't have a clue how to do anything except play that new tune faster or slower....if I learned a hundred songs like these, I still won't know "how to play the mandolin", I'll just know how to play those particular songs "on the mandolin."

    Thoughts? Advice?
    Tim

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    Registered User Elliot Luber's Avatar
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    I think it's good to strike a balance.

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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    I agree. It is also personal preference. Are you seriously trying to become a virtuoso? Then focus on learning to play the instrument. Are you just trying to have fun? Then learn tunes and jam with people. I go the fun route first, until I run up against a tune I want to play, but can't. Then I will design some drills that help get me there and work them for a while.

    My favorite mando player who later became my instructor, Curtis Buckhannon, told me he has never taken a lesson, done a drill or studied any theory. He just plays tunes, completely by ear and feel. I can't argue with the end result. I am sure there are other great players who would consider that blasphemy. Each to one's own.




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    A balance is good. And, the best way to get there that I've found is a good teacher. Finding that teacher sometimes takes some trial and error, but you'll know you have a gem when you find one (I did, and highly recommend Daniel Carwile to anyone in Central Kentucky!)

    Paula

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    I took piano lessons as a kid, and I took a few drum lessons in school. I learned to play both pretty well, but I wanted to play something I could carry with me. That turned out to be the banjo...
    Anyway, I learned from tab, and by ear from 33 1/3 RPM vinyl records. No lessons.
    I didn't want to be a virtuoso, (good thing, it ain't happened yet) I just wanted to have fun. I would learn the tunes and breaks note for note and play them the same every time.
    Then, after I'd been playing for a while, I'd hear the record I learned the tune from, and it was different! I wasn't playing it the same way anymore! I was doing it wrong!
    Well, no, I wasn't doing it wrong at all, I was just doing it differently. I was starting to play the instrument rather than just playing the tunes, and didn't even realize it.
    Much later, when I was doing banjo tracks on a friends record, (CD, by this time) when it came time to punch in a different break, or fix a bad note, the recording engineer said, "just play along with yourself in the headphones, and I'll punch in the new track when we get there." "No problem," I thought, "I play these breaks the same way every time anyway". Well, guess what. I couldn't play it the same way twice no matter how I tried.

    A few months, you say?
    Well, if you learn anything like the same way I do, just keep playing and having fun. Take lessons if you want to and can afford them, use tab, notation, CDs, anything that helps, and after you've been playing for a while, you'll find your fingers where you never expected them, because all those influences will accumulate to the point that you'll start to use them in your own way.

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    Tim,

    I just stopped taking lessons (today) after about 3 years with the same reflection you have voiced. I think I will really learn to play the stuff I want to lean a little faster and, along the way, find some different ways to play the songs and trust my ear to learn some new ones. I may go back to lessons, but doing all 7 modes throughout the circle of 5ths just doesn't flip my skirt up right now.

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    There's something John McGann says...something like "it all comes in through the ears." I'm just a humble student myself, maybe intermediate by now (maybe). But I like the idea of learning to play tunes, learning to play with others, then focusing on theory when you come up against limitations.

    Isn't that the way they teach languages now? Teach people to say the things that need to be said...then later, teach them how to dissect those things, how to understand the language. Communication first, grammatical theory later.

    My problem is, I never seem to get to the theory. There's always another tune to learn. <g> .... ok, so I'm having fun. Isn't that what it's all about, really?
    J. Mark Lane
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    My point on lessons is that I have found it to be invaluable to know what I'm doing incorrectly technique wise, and also what I'm doing right! And, from someone who knows what they are talking about, not from jam buddies who think they know what they are talking about.

    The key is finding the right teacher, who doesn't bog you down with theory while you're finding your way, or with memorizing tab or notation, etc., but instead uses a combination of methods to help you move forward.

    Paula

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    I believe in studying some theory and learning chords and playing backup with others playing leads and melodies. Then pick up the tunes as you go along. If you don't know how to play rhythm you can only play when you do the leads. This is how I always taught guitar.

    Jack
    "It's never too late to have a happy childhood"

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    Thanks guys for the responses. Maybe it's just comforting to know that I'm not the only one that seems to struggle with this particular issue. Yes, I do play for fun...but something deep down wants to know "why" that works. There's a fascination with learning the fretboard and undertanding how to build chords from scratch...but, there's a burning need to play something that sounds like music. Yeah, I'll keep trying. No, I make no pretenses about wanting to be a virtuoso, but I am easily frustrated when I am just doing something because that's the way it's supposed to be done. And actually, John Hamlett (thanks for your excellent posting, by the way), I've already experienced a few of those "moments' when what I'm playing sounds perfectly "right", even though I know that it's technically "wrong." Again, thanks for the comments...I would say that I'll struggle on...but, heck, I'm having fun...it's hardly something that qualifies as struggling.
    Tim

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    Registered User otterly2k's Avatar
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    Tim- I think the fun is the thing.
    And that's not to dismiss the value of exercises and drills, etc... there's some fun to be had in the sense of accomplishment as you gain skill.
    But drills alone don't really inspire one to play a lot.
    If you play things you enjoy playing (tunes, chords, whatever), you will play MORE...and more play time is definitely a plus.

    It's like exercise. Is it better to develop one's muscles and stamina on a stationary bike in a gym, or is it better to ride your bike everywhere you go? No right answer, really. Each one will make you better at the other. Gym workout may help you to do it "properly" and develop the musculature and get into a routine... but riding around town you get to experience the breeze and the trees, learn how to dodge traffic or ride in tandem with someone, see the world, go places, etc... different experience... it's all good.
    KE
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    Registered User Greg H.'s Avatar
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    A great thing about learning lots of tunes is you find along the way that this bit of one tune works great in part of another tune, so you start mixing things together. In each of these tune you learn new musical phrases, and while at first you just use them in one specific tune over time you find other places they work equally well. Knowing the scales then gives you the thread to tie the different phrases together.

    Or. . . .I keep telling myself this anyways. . . . it could just be I'm giving myself an excuse to play everything wrong.



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  13. #13
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    Tim -

    You're not alone. I've been wanting to ask that same question for a long, but didn't want to sound stupid. It's definitely not stupid. Thanks for having the guts. The rest of you people on this board are fantastic. I've learned more about learning to play the mandolin, here, than from any other source. Thank yo all.

    From Tim:

    "Thanks guys for the responses. Maybe it's just comforting to know that I'm not the only one that seems to struggle with this particular issue. Yes, I do play for fun...but something deep down wants to know "why" that works. There's a fascination with learning the fretboard and undertanding how to build chords from scratch...but, there's a burning need to play something that sounds like music. Yeah, I'll keep trying. No, I make no pretenses about wanting to be a virtuoso, but I am easily frustrated when I am just doing something because that's the way it's supposed to be done. And actually, John Hamlett (thanks for your excellent posting, by the way), I've already experienced a few of those "moments' when what I'm playing sounds perfectly "right", even though I know that it's technically "wrong." Again, thanks for the comments...I would say that I'll struggle on...but, heck, I'm having fun...it's hardly something that qualifies as struggling."

    A-men

    From Karen:

    "It's like exercise. Is it better to develop one's muscles and stamina on a stationary bike in a gym, or is it better to ride your bike everywhere you go? No right answer, really. Each one will make you better at the other. Gym workout may help you to do it "properly" and develop the musculature and get into a routine... but riding around town you get to experience the breeze and the trees, learn how to dodge traffic or ride in tandem with someone, see the world, go places, etc... different experience... it's all good.
    KE"

    It drives me on with what I've been doing.

    It's great to have other people confirm that you're not just treading water. Thanks all, Gene

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    Registered User Tom C's Avatar
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    I would learn a few fiddle tunes in "A" just to get the feeling of playing in that key. Play them over and over and over again. Then you will find "D" is very similar. So after a couple of weeks(or months)try tunes in "G" to get the feeling of playing in that key.

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    I highly recommend Brad Laird's "Mandolin Master Class." It does a very good job of explaining theory and why you play what you play. It includes a cd with lots of examples. It's available from Brad's website, or Elderly Instruments
    elderly



    awm

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    Registered User fiddler's Avatar
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    A tune is the same as a scale, with the notes in a different order.

    Formal scales don't seem to help me much, but good exercises (like Ted's FFcP warmup) are great for getting both myself and the instrument loosened up.



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    Fingers of Concrete ccravens's Avatar
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    Tim,
    I'll add my change($)to the advice already given.

    1. I agree with the earlier post: it all depends on what you want to accomplish. Do you play in, or want to play in a group? Be able to jam at sessions? Play tunes for yourself at home? Are you looking to just have fun, or get good at the instrument (while having fun at the same time, of course!)? This will determine how you need to learn.

    2. Also in ref. to earlier post: a combination of both learning tunes and learning the instrument is, IMHO, the best route. You might want to concentrate on learning tunes that demand certain skills that you don't already have down. It's been said before and it's true: practicing tunes will help you learn to play those tunes, while practicing exercises will help you learn to play the instrument. Neither is right or wrong, it's just choosing which you desire. I just feel a combo of both is preferred, especially if you plan on jamming with others and learning to improvise.

    3. If you plan on learning both (it doesn't have to be an either/or), then a good teacher is important. There are PLENTY of "learn how to play the song" instructional books (Roland White, most of Homespun's videos, etc.) and a few "theory" ones, but I've only found 2 teachers that realize & teach the importance of both. Braid Laird's course (good on theory and practice skills) and Niles Hokkanen's books (esp. "Pentatonic" & "Up The Neck"; good on theory and applying it to songs) are the best I've found in this area. You can Google both, or I or someone here can give you their websites.

    In any case, enjoy the journey!
    Chris C.
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    Thanks Chris (and everyone) for the comments and suggestions. I guess this makes me wonder how many more folks there are struggling with making the connection between the theory and application. Apparently, it's an obvious jump for most...but more of a stretch for others of us. You'd think there exists here a real opportunity for someone to focus on putting together some instructional material that focuses on building this bridge (e.g. deconstruct some lead lines and show where they came from, how they were constructed, or whatever, is the right approach(es)). The "you'll figure it out, just try some stuff" approach doesn't seem to work for some of us less gifted wannabes...and, I would guess, this applies to a much bigger audience than just mandolin students.

    Meanwhile, I really appreciate the recommendations on learning materials, (like Laird's and Hokkanen's) and I will absolutely pursue them - I'm a sponge for that kinduv stuff.

    Sincere thanks for everyone's excellent comments and insight,
    Tim

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    Hi Tim,

    Since I don't even know how to tune my mandolin yet I won't give you specific advice but I can second the opinion to do both the exercises and the tunes from the perspective of learning any instrument.

    What you are doing is a physical activity and as such you need to build not only the specific muscles and endurance needed but also the brain pathways. Scales, arpeggios and other exercises will help you get develop the physical aspect of playing but for me if that's all my lessons consisted of it would just take out all the joy of playing. You should still do the exercises but also learn some tunes that appeal to you and will work on whatever you need working on for whatever you want to play mandolin for or you will die of bordem, or worse, move on to something else and have your instrument just sit, getting dusty in a corner somewhere.

    When I was learning (French) Horn I had a teacher that insisted on my NOT playing any actual music until I had mastered all the "school-girl" exercises. I used to write my own music that worked on whatever I was working on at the time because I was just so bored. That teacher was very uncomfortable with me playing my own music and eventually, I had to find another teacher. My new teacher would still make me do the exercises but then would tell me to write something that worked on one particular thing he thought I needed working on and master that. It made it much more interesting and challenging to compose my own instructional material and also gave me a real leg up when it came to improvising.

    That's MHO

    Sara

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    For most of us adults with busy busy lives---if there isn't SOMEthing fun and engaging in it, we simply won't keep it up. This is true of adult learning in general (and, I'd argue, LEARNING in general). Any ways you can develop to work on technique and enjoy it are worth doing. IMHO, of course.

    I never did any drills. I'm sure my technique suffers for it, no doubt. But I can play and have fun, and do on a regular basis. I'm pretty good b/c I'm already an experienced musician... but I'll never be a GREAT mandolin player unless I bite the bullet and apply some discipline to my learning. I know this. I still may never do it.

    Everyone has to find their own balance and learning that works for them. I prefer learning music in context (e.g. playing with others)... but I know this won't work for everyone.
    Karen Escovitz
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Whatever is neccessary to keep up the fun. It's like having a musical box - most of the time it will play tunes for your pleasure, but sometimes you'll have to wind it up: exercise.

    Bertram
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