Handel Tuner Replacement Options

**8strings** · Feb-20-2006, 7:22pm

As a proud owner of a 1916 Gibson F4 mandolin, I am looking at a suitable replacement for the Handel tuners that are currently installed on this instrument. The mandolin itself is in extremely good condition, but as so often, the tuners have seen better days. I have contacted a few people visiting this site over the last few months, either by Email or by conventional mail. I have even sent out CD-R with a short movie, depicting the extent of the problem. However, either I did not receive a reply at all or I was referred to someone else (mostly the former). I am now intending to replace the tuners alltogether. Has anyone here tried this and would Waverly tuners be suitable for this project? I am used to metric measurements and the specs that I have obtained from other websites are currenly of limited help to me. I have just ordered a 'fraction' string action gauge from Stewart McDonald, which will help me with my conversions. But just maybe there might be someone amongst you who have had the same problem and who bought and installed alternative tuners for everyday use on a 'Teen' Gibson F4. Any assistance and/or comments would be much appreciated. Thank you.

**Michael Lewis** · Feb-21-2006, 2:59am

The problem you are facing is that the current industry standard for string post spacing is just a bit different than what you have there. It is only about 1/16" (1.5 mm) but enough to cause a real problem. I currently have a request placed with a manufacturer in hopes they will be made avilable. That string post spacing was last used around 1922 at Gibson.

Considering how many older instruments are out there with this spacing and are now in need of replacement machines it is curious that no new ones are available.

**Paul Hostetter** · Feb-21-2006, 3:24am

The Waverlys won't fit. They will almost fit, but the difference in the post spacings between the old Waverlys and the new Waverlys is just enough different that they will bind in the original bushings and work terribly.

The original Waverlys always work if you know what to do. Someday I'll find the requisite amount of volunteer hours to put together a real page about this. In the meantime, this'll have to do. And it’s going to take at least two posts to do it because they won’t let me post more than two of even my own images in a single post. Grr.

In the first place, you'll need the right lubricant. The one I use is called Tri-Flow. It's available at bike shops the world over. It contains Teflon, and no oil. Teflon is the lubricant, it's a dry sphere too small to see. It's in a carrier which evaporates. It looks like this:

OK. Next:

**Paul Hostetter** · Feb-21-2006, 3:29am

1) take the gears off the mandolin and remove all the cogs. Clean the plates where the cogs actually make contact. There's usually a layer of schmutz under there: congealed old oil, dirt, etc. Get rid of it. Clean and shiny. Use Q-Tips and silver polish, or better yet, Simichrome.

2) Clean the face of the cogs that actually contacts the plate. Polish these surfaces too.

3) Clean the insides of the bushings. Q-Tips work well for this. You want them clean and shiny inside. Do those in place, don’t remove them.

4) Reassemble the gears, leaving the cogs fairly loose, and put the strips back on the mandolin.

5) With the dripper tube on the Tri-Flow inserted, carefully apply lubricant as shown here:

5) Turn the gears a lot to make sure the lubricant gets into every place where metal meets metal. Use a string crank:

The one place that’s not going to do a lot is where the cog meets the worm, because there’s very little contact there actually. But do your best.

6) Here's the critical part. You need to tighten the screws that hold the cog just right. They need to be tight enough to hold thngs together, but loose enough to be able to yield to the pull of the string when it's at tension. If you overtighten it, the cog will bind on the plate. This is the trouble you’ve been having. The cog is hanging up and there's no backlash movement in the gear. It must be able to move smoothly when up to tension. If the knobs turns but the cog doesn’t, this adjustment is wrong.

**Paul Hostetter** · Feb-21-2006, 3:29am

7) It’s not entirely essential, but one last thing to do is put a small drop of Tri-Flow right where the tuner shaft touches the bushing:

If the bearing surfaces are clean, polished and well lubricated, and if the screw adjustment is correct, these gears will turn smoothly with no knob play under tension. The strings take up the backlash if they can.

And it goes without saying, but I’ll say it anyway, you always tune up to a note. If your string is sharp, tune below and then back up to the precise pitch.

**grandmainger** · Feb-21-2006, 3:41am

Originally Posted by (Paul Hostetter @ Feb. 21 2006, 08:24)

Someday I'll find the requisite amount of volunteer hours to put together a real page about this.

Paul, what else is needed? You've just done it! It's a great set of instructions! Thanks a bunch for that. I have a set of Handels which I'll now get working on following these guidelines.
Great!

Germain

**danb** · Feb-21-2006, 7:19am

I just did something similar on my '25 A4. Mine had some grime & grit under the cog, so I took the screw out completely, pulled out the shaft from the top.. then removed the cog from the plate.. cleaned that with a wet cloth to pick up some little gritty bits.. cleaned the shaft & cog whell completely, cleaned the worm.. then finally used 3-in-1 (English brand name that is equiv to tri-flow) in all the places Paul mentioned. One still a little stiff but all the others almost like new.

I suspect there is a little bit of grit inside the plate where the shaft goes through, so next string change I'll take the whole set of tuners off and thoroughly clean them on the side that's against the peghead normally!

Frank Ford suggests that "all moving parts" of a mandolin should be given a lube job once a year. When you have a good set of vintage tuners, they are spectacularly easy to use.

**evanreilly** · Feb-21-2006, 10:52am

Paul: excellent information!!

**Paul Hostetter** · Feb-21-2006, 1:12pm

Dan - 3-In-One here in the States has always been one lubricant I've heartily discouraged anyone from using, as it's a common oil that polymerizes into the gunk you want to avoid. That was the case until recently, when the company was bought by WD-40:

"The formula consists of pale spindle oil with a small amount of corrosion inhibitor and citronella oil (which gives the product its distinctive sharp odor). It remains a popular lubricant for bicycle chains, although it attracts more dirt than some modern alternatives and can be washed away by very heavy rain.

"A few other products are now produced under the 3-in-1 brand, including a white lithium grease, silicone spray and oil with added PTFE."

It's still the main product, but they've expanded the line. If what you're using is their High-Performance Lubricant Spray with PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene), you should be OK. But it's still an oil, and part of their sales shtick is to keep it handy to use it over and over and over (use more product). The oil component ensures this need.

What I like about the Teflon formula is that you use it once and then not again for many, many years. I have a set of salvaged Waverly guitar gears with Handel buttons on a guitar I have been using constantly since 1979. I dosed them with Tri-Flow in '79 and haven't had to think about it since. Same on an A-4 I have been playing for 20 years. No oil. No waxy buildup. No need for reapplication.

The 3-In-One with PTFE is several orders of magnitude better than rank and file 3-In-One:

But I'd still head for the teflon products instead.

**Duc Vu** · Feb-21-2006, 5:56pm

Thanks Paul for the lesson on tuner maintenance. I want to share what I've learned about bike chain lube. Teflon is a Dupont trademark for a family of fluorinated polymers, one of which is PTFE. As Paul said, it's the carrier for the Teflon/PTFE that makes the difference. See the Dupont product guide:wet, dry and wax lubes.
I prefer dry or wax lube for my bike chain, the Tri-flow product that Paul uses seems to be a dry lube.

**8strings** · Feb-21-2006, 6:13pm

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this topic so far, especially to you Paul. I have yet to follow the lubrication instructions and I am keen to see the results. With so many teen Gibson mandolins still around and the tuners becoming fragile and worn, there must be a market for high quality replacements. As Michael pointed out, the size difference from the regular Waverly's is only 1.5mm, something that should not be all that difficult to address in the factory (assuming that this would be the only issue). I have just written to Stewart McDonald, asking them to consider producing a Waverly set for this particular market. Perhaps if all of you do the same, this could make an impact. Stewart McDonald are great and I am sure that they will listen.

**grandmainger** · Feb-21-2006, 6:41pm

Originally Posted by (8strings @ Feb. 21 2006, 23:13)

With so many teen Gibson mandolins still around and the tuners becoming fragile and worn, there must be a market for high quality replacements.

Agreed, but the majority of these mandolins are A models... One may not necessarily want to spend $500 on a set of new tuners for one of these... On an $3000 mint F4, definitely!, but on a $700 A1...

**Paul Hostetter** · Feb-21-2006, 7:02pm

With so many teen Gibson mandolins still around and the tuners becoming fragile and worn, there must be a market for high quality replacements.

I'd venture to say that 99% of the gears that are replaced because of some malfunction that the user perceives as being "worn" is in fact simply a matter of not being properly maintained. Boy, do I wish I could get those discarded tuners back, they're usually way better than the replacements people regrettably put on instead. Eighty years and counting, those old Gibson gears have a long way to go yet, if the players would only get with the program. But so many people would rather just spend money on some fashionable consumer item that's being advertised.

I do see tuners poop out completely: cracked cogs, slipping teeth because teeth wore down or tolerances were lost - both due in some measure to poor maintenance. Most such problems arise in cheap or shoddy gears. The old Waverlys, even when worn visibly such as those shown between the two Step 5s above, work great because they were very well made in the first place.

I think the market is for high-quality new gears for new instruments, and I think that market is being well, if unevenly, met. In other words I wish there was something that worked as well as a Gotoh that looked more like the modern Waverlys (which, to be clear, have nothing whatsoever to do with the historic company by that name), but didn't cost as much as the Waverlys! I will probably never develop a fondness for pearloid gear buttons or chrome. There are plenty of other good gears on the market too.

A number of us have had the conversation with Stew-Mac for years about the various retrofit gears they could make. I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. It's really not a very big market, and the production costs for three different variants of the Waverly mandolin gears would never pay off.

**8strings** · Feb-21-2006, 9:07pm

....Apologies if I am misjudging the market potential for a new tuner range here. And bad luck for you people who might not have maintained your tuners the way you should have, even if you have inhereted your instruments from family members or other musicians. With the invention of electric carving knifes and vibrating razors, I continue to believe that replacement tuners for older mandolins would not be a strange idea either. Lets not discourage the few people who have the skills and means to manufacturer them.

**mandroid** · Feb-21-2006, 10:46pm

How much bushing wear is there on the grommet/ bushing, typically? after 80+ years...
shifting it around have any benefit? can one get any better gear meshing contact that way?

**Paul Hostetter** · Feb-21-2006, 11:04pm

During those 80 years they've probably been rotated and shifted a bit anyway. I don't believe I have ever seen one fail, or even come close.

One thing that does affect gear function is whether the posts are held really perpendicular to the plate. Once in awhile you find one that never was right since Day One, but ooching a bushing back is not a huge deal. Apprehending the situation is the hard part.

**8strings** · Feb-22-2006, 7:24pm

I followed Paul's instructions as well as I could. I spent all of yesterday evening/night to conquer this project and WOW, what a difference! However, I bought a different lubrication product from the one Paul recommended. Called FinishLine, it contains Teflon as well. The bike shop were I bought it did not carry TriFlo, explaining that they always know when someone used TriFlo on their bike chain as it takes far longer to wash this product off than it would with FinishLine (this must be a bad thing, I don't own a bike). Anyway, this could have just been a sales pitch, but I used the replacement product and a dozen Q-Tips and it worked. The only thing I could not achieve was the removal of the cogs. I took the screws of and pulled on these little wheels just using my fingers, but they did not move, even a fraction. I suspect that there would still be some dirt under them and I am keen to attend to this as well and as soon as I have some additional advice. Could you help again, Paul? It was amazing, watching how all this black stuff was coming out of several places on the tuner assembly. The most tiresome part was winding the tuners for long periods of time (I did not have a winder). You can really feel them coming loose after a while. This has probably never been done. In my case probably not in 80 years (mandolin built in 1917). Yes indeed, these tuners are very well made and this set of maintenance procedures will (help) revive them to their former glory. Lets see if I can post some photographs now and once again thank you for your collective input.

**8strings** · Feb-22-2006, 7:25pm

Tools of trade.......

**8strings** · Feb-22-2006, 7:26pm

...and this is how the tuners look now!

**Paul Hostetter** · Feb-22-2006, 8:12pm

To get the cogs off the posts, you need a pin punch that will seat at the bottom of the screwhole but won't possibly damage the threads. Here's one:

You can use a drill bit of proper diameter as well. I'll repeat this because it's really important: you want to seat the punch on the bottom of the hole without disturbing the threads in the walls.

Put the plate on a good vise whose jaws are closed to the diameter of the shaft, but not tightened to it. Just a hair loose. This way there is full support for the plate and the cog, but room is left for the shaft to drop through between the jaws of the vise. (A hole in a very hard block of wood would do as well.)

Put the pin punch down the screwhole until it touches bottom, and tap gently with a hammer. The gook holding it all together will give and the post will drop through. Then you have the whole thing completely apart and can clean that last - and most important - zone so the cog turns cleanly.

**8strings** · Feb-22-2006, 8:42pm

...Thanks a lot Paul, I will go ahead with the (very helpful) procedure that you have outlined. I am assuming that joining these parts again once they are cleaned, would not be a problem either?

**MML** · Feb-22-2006, 9:25pm

Excellent information on tuner maintanice Paul. I have done this on all my vintage tuners, and believe it or not I enjoy this tedious task.
I once had a stubborn tuner on a 29 Gibson, gave it the once over and bada bing...its been 9 years and still turning as smooth as a babies bottom. As long as theres no cracked gears or bent shafts those old tuners are bullet proof

**8strings** · Feb-22-2006, 11:32pm

....Yes, I am enjoying this DIY maintenance as well. I was a little hesitant in the beginning, but Paul gives very detailed instructions to manage this project. I have taken one set of tuners off the mandolin again (one at a time saves resetting the bridge) and using an old drill bit (it is now) and 2 pieces of wood, the shafts and cogs are now seperated (drill bit worked really well). There was quite a bit of sludge underneath the cogs. I am thinking about using an old toothbrush to remove any foreign substances from all the parts. Would you recommend bathing some of the parts in a cleaning solution Paul, and what would you use? This would really flush out everything before the parts are lubricated again, ready for re-assembly. Obviously I would be very careful with the buttons. Perhaps another useful tip if you are contemplating this project: I have made a rough drawing of the complete tuner plate, numbering each shaft. I then proceeded, placing shaft and cog that belonged together in a small transparent and numbered (coin) bag. I figure that cog and shaft should stay together as they have been for the last 80 years. Really looking forward to putting everything together again.

**Paul Hostetter** · Feb-23-2006, 2:38am

Several cleaning agents come to mind, naphtha (lighter fluid) being near the top of the list. It cuts the stuff, wipes dry and leaves almost nothing behind, and what does get left behind can be cleaned with a typical water-based household cleaning agent. Not sure what you'd find in Australia, but Simple Green or 409 are two such products we get here. I bet you have Fantastic there, that would be quite good. Even these without the naphtha would probably be fine. It will still take elbow grease. An old toothbrush is helpful for scrubbing in the tight places.

Once the cogs and shafts are cleaned and dry, they'll slip right back together.

**grandmainger** · Feb-23-2006, 3:14am

Originally Posted by (8strings @ Feb. 23 2006, 00:24)

The most tiresome part was winding the tuners for long periods of time (I did not have a winder).

At last year's Symposium, Paul Lestock (of Arrow Mandolins) had a custom attachment for an electric screwdriver designed just for that. Essentially, it was the peg-holding bit of a peg-winder, glued to a screw bit. That way, he could wind and unwind a variable speed, for long period of times, with ZERO effort!

Germain