How would you play this?

[aries753]

How do you play a song in Ab or E with any speed?
Our monthly P&W group plays a lot of songs in these keys. I whined about one of the songs and got it changed from Ab to A. (Shine Jesus Shine sounds better in A anyway. And I can play it with some kind of speed in A)

Most of the other songs are in either Ab or E. ICK!
Would you A. tune down 1/2 step and play like it's in either D or G?
B. use a capo?
C. play in second position? I'm not sure if that is the right terminology, If I need to play a Bb do it on the D string etc. That would take care of trying to reach from a Ab back to a Bb or Eb.
D. Lots of practice and a finger stretcher?

Thanks for any help.

[Ted Eschliman]

Learn FFcP and fear no keys! Once you break yourself of the chronic dependency on open strings, you will be free to play in those awkward "Hymnal" keys.

Remember, the pinky is your friend, and live free, play free.

[woodwiz]

I just recently started playing in the flat keys: Bb, Eb, Ab, and even Db. #I don't know how big your hands are, but mine aren't very big. I still can't quite reach a Gminor chop chord. #Even so, I don't have any trouble reaching scales in any of those keys. I don't play any open strings when I'm playing melody. #It's great, because once I learn a tune in a flat key, transposing gets really easy. You just move up the fingerboard a little.

To learn, I just played a lot of scales, thirds, and now pentatonics to get used to the finger positions. #I thought it was going to be hard, but it only took a couple of weeks for it to feel familiar. One thing that helped was that I already used my fourth finger a lot, so I had a little strength there.

Edit: Looks like Mandohack was posting while I was writing. FFcP looks like a good approach to learning the same thing I learned by just playing scales in all the modes in each key. Anything that helps you practice and learn the finger positions so they are automatic will do the trick.

[PaulD]

I haven't specifically done the FFcP exercises yet, but I learned some patterns long ago that I move around the fretboard for odd keys. I like the way Ted put it: "Learn FFcP and fear no keys!" A capo would be another reasonable option if you have a pattern that will work by capoing up, but I don't use them because my hands are so big and real estate on the mando fretboard is already at a premium! That said, I have one of those skinny Paige capos that is the least obtrusive of any capos I've used. I'm too lazy to detune my mando!

Paul Doubek

[aries753]

Would you capo at 1 making all of the "open" strings flat or at 6?
The capo at 6 makes the Ab and Db and groups everything close together

[woodwiz]

A capo at 1 would make Ab and Db even harder, and capoing at 6 would work, but takes most of your bass away.

These keys really are easy to play wihtout a capo if you just practice a bit, and the benefits are a lot greater than playing with a capo.

[PaulD]

I don't have a mando in my hands right now, but if I'm thinking about this correctly a capo at 1 would allow all open strings in Ab and Db and use of an open G pattern for the fretted notes for Ab. In other words, both Ab and Db should be easy with a capo on 1. Does that makes sense? Am I transposing correctly in my head?

Paul Doubek

[rsgars]

I would use the capo only when playing rhythm. When playing melody/lead I would learn FFcP. Of course, if you are planning to do both within the same song that creates a problem.

I was learning the melody for "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" in Bb last night. It seemed a lot easier than playing it on guitar!

[kudzugypsy]

OT, but here is what makes you mad -
we were playing a gig with a very good keyboard player and all night long playing in those *flat keys* - the piano player said, oh, i just transpose that on my keyboard and play everything out of C (easiest on piano) - i was like, dang, that is cheating...you mean you just have the midi keyboard transpose everything into the easiest key while the rest of us are tring to play in Eb all night!!

[aries753]

Where can I get the "Magic Key Shift Button" for my mando?

[PaulD]

You can probably get one from this guy! Butt-ugly, but it could be fun!

pd

[Jim Broyles]

I agree with the idea of learning to play in all keys without a capo, but capoing at 1 for Ab would be the equivalent of the key of G, open. I don't see how this is harder than Ab open. Similarly, Db would equal C. Hardly harder than open Db. I would never capo at 6 on a mando, but I see no problem with 1, for a player who isn't practiced up in FFcP. It's about the music, right? Especially for P&W group. For the Key of E major, I'd leave it open. The B chord isn't that bad, if you play it three fingered, and if you make it a B7, it contains open strings. Relative minors aren't bad in that key, either.

[woodwiz]

I don't have a mando in my hands right now, but if I'm thinking about this correctly a capo at 1 would allow all open strings in Ab and Db and use of an open G pattern for the fretted notes for Ab. In other words, both Ab and Db should be easy with a capo on 1. Does that makes sense? Am I transposing correctly in my head?

Paul Doubek

I think you probably are. I was looking at it kind of backwards.

I still think it's easier and a lot more flexible to play without a capo. I've been playing in flat keys a lot lately, going through Hank Williams and Johnny Cash songbooks, and for the life of me I can't see where it would help.

[swampstomper]

As much as I like playing in closed positions for jazz etc., there is something about ringing open strings that can make a song. Herschel uses them a lot even in Bb or B. Jethro liked to fit them into his runs. And "Shine, Hallelujiah, Shine" just cries out for that full "open A" sound, with an open A drone off the melody. So I think you did right to get your band to change the key on that one.

One solution might be to have two mandos (you have plenty more than that right??) and keep one tuned a half-step flat, maybe with heavier strings. Then pull this one out for Ab, Db and Gb (F#).

[aries753]

Well...........yeah I have more than 1 mando, and I have given serious thought to doing just that.:blues:

[aries753]

That's just what I did. Left the Mid-MO tuned normal and tuned the Dean A down a 1/2 step on all the strings. Then played like everything was in A. Worked great, only got confused once, of course I had to swap mandos for every song.
After doing some string calculations I figured out why the Dean was softer. By tuning down I reduced to total string tension by about 18 pounds.
I guess if I was really lazy and had more money (not me) than sense, I could have a custom mando built with a longer neck so that there was higher string tension at the lower tuning. Looks like about an inch would do the trick, and then a capo on 1 to have "normal" tuning. Have not done the fret calculator thing yet.

[groveland]

Would you A. tune down 1/2 step and play like it's in either D or G?
B. use a capo?
C. play in second position? I'm not sure if that is the right terminology, If I need to play a Bb do it on the D string etc. That would take care of trying to reach from a Ab back to a Bb or Eb.
D. Lots of practice and a finger stretcher?

I would definitely go with C. I don't think tuning multiple mandolins is a good solution, especially on that day when they call out tunes for 12 different keys. I appreciate that ringing open sound, but I think you can get a good ringing sound if you get a good solid connection between fret and string. Some mandolins and setups aren't that easy, and it takes some working out on the mandolin to get the strength. I prefer a wider nut, bigger frets, and radiused fretboards for playability - It seems to help me make better connections.

Anyway, assuming you are speaking mainly of chords: For the only tune I know by that name in Ab, here's what I would probably play -




Hope that helps a bit.