7 - 8 strings rattle

[R. Smith]

I have a 2003 Michael Kelly Fire Fly Legacy . This is a perfect mandolin for me . I have a problem , though . My top strings rattle all the way down the fingerboard when I play notes . The dealer I bought it from suggested going to lighter strings since mine does not seem to have a high fret anywhere . I did and all I got was a thin sound and less rattle . The mandolin came with the bridge all the way down and the intonation is perfect . But , I can't get away from the rattle on the 7 - 8 strings unless I raise it up about 10 turns on the top thumb screw and then the intonation is too high . He says if I try to adjust the truss rod it might break . I really like this model and would like to keep it but if this is a problem the factory needs to fix please advise . I have a 1930's Gibson A - type and this isn't a problem . Please advise and I will appreciate .

[pathfinder]

Need more info.

When did the rattling start? Did you buy it this way, or has it only recently started to do this?

Has the trussrod been adjusted since you bought it? Is the cover properly tightened down to the peghead?

Does it have a pickguard? If so, is it properly secured?

What type of tailpiece do you have?

[sunburst]

He says if I try to adjust the truss rod it might break .

I ...Hate!...it when dealers say things like this! Why have a truss rod if you can't adjust it? Why does he (or she) assume, or at least imply that you are incompetent to adjust your own neck?

The problem might be insufficient bow or relief in the neck. If you use the proper tool, a nut driver of the proper size securely seated on the adjustment nut, an Allen wrench of the proper size securely seated in the socket, whatever it needs, you can't do any damage if you loosen the truss rod a little to increase the bow.

Press a string down at the first fret and hold it there. Now press the same string down at the 12th or14th fret. Is there a little bit of clearance between the string and the frets half way between the points where you have it held down? If not, you need to loosen the trus rod.

Loosen about 1/4 to 1/2 turn and try again 'til the bow is correct. (about .015 in. more or less clearance as described above).

If you have no bow in the neck and the rod is already loose, you wont be able to adjust it. You or a luthier will have to repair it.

If you understand how to use tools, and you understand that the truss rod is there only to maintain correct neck bow, not to make major adjustments in action height etc., you wont break the rod. That's what it's there for. Just use the right tool for the job, and never force it, and it will be fine.

[Bluemando]

I also have a Michael Kelly Firefly. I had the same problem and could not figure out where the rattle was coming from. I went over the instrument checking the tightness of all the screws and found that there was a couple screws loose that hold the buttons on the tuners. I tightened them and no more rattle.

[R. Smith]

There is no loose hardware or pickguard . The bow seems perfect . Please respond . This just doesn't make any sense . The truss rod feels welded ! You can't budge it in either direction without it making cracking noises in the headstock .

[sunburst]

A lot of manufacturers finish right over the truss rod nut. If you turn it for the first time the finish will crack and make noise. There can be a little glue on things sometimes too. It is also possible that it was improperly installed or really got glued in.
Anyway, if the bow seems to be good you don't need to adjust it now, but you might have fret problems...or the G strings may be too low at the bridge. They usually need to be about 3/32 in. measured from the 12th fret to the bottom of the string as a starting point, but some people can play with lower action.
By the way, lighter strings usually make buzzing problems worse, so I don't understand the advice to use lighter strings or the improvement you noted.

[Pickin_N_Ridin]

I had a similar problem on my Tacoma M3 Mandolin. Adjusted the truss rod properly...didn't cure the problem. Checked the hardware...no problems there. I took it to a qualified luthier. He told me that the strings were sitting too low in the nut. He adjusted it for me, double checked the truss rod and bridge, and now it plays better than ever! Best $20 I've ever spent!

[sunburst]

#I took it to a qualified luthier. #He told me that the strings were sitting too low in the nut. #

Certainly good advice, and it wont hurt to check the string height at the nut, but if, as you say, the strings buzz all the way up the neck, that indicates the bridge, the frets, or the neck bow.

[John Zimm]

Quick question on this topic.

I am going to try and loosen the truss ros on my Mk. Does the truss rod loosen like a normal nut, in other words, left loosey? Just curious about this before I start messing with the truss rod.

Also, if the truss rod is loosened, will I need to put heavier strings on to make the neck come forward a little? Currently I play with light strings, but I've got a set of heavier ones if needs be.

Thanks in advance for any advice for my basic questions here.

-John.

[Luthier]

Hey John,
Normally 1/4 turn to the right will tighten the rod and remove some bow and a 1/4 turn to the left will loosen the rod allowing the string tension to cause more relief in the neck. #Some rods are adjustable in both directions and don't just rely on the string tension. #The rod sits lower than the center of the neck and can uses compression to correct a bow. #
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/pagelist.html
has a lot of information on truss rods if you get a chance to read it. #I adjust a small amount at a time and sometimes let the neck sit for a day just to check the adjustment.

Don

[sunburst]

Yep, lefty loosey, righty tighty.

You wont know 'til you loosen the rod what will happen. If all is as it should be, there will be some tesnion in the rod so that loosening it will let the neck bow forward. Sometimes this is not the case and the neck will stay too straight.
A truss rod with no tension at all is prone to rattling or buzzing, BTW, so keep that in mind.
Heavier strings may or may not have much affect if the rod will not allow enough bow, but that's not really the way to fix the situation because it should work with any strings.
Wait and see what happens when you loosen the rod before thinking about fixing a problem that's probably not there anyway.

[John Zimm]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the help. I'll let you know hot it turns out.

-John.

[Austin Clark]

I may be a newbie, but the first time I made a new nut, I made the string slots too wide for the gauge I was using and accidentally sloped the slot toward the fingerboard. The slope toward the fingerboard made exactly the buzz you are talking about by allowing the string to vibrate in the nut. It took me about a month to finally figure it out. I built a new nut and no longer have the problem.
my $.02

[Mike Buesseler]

Austin--if the problem is with the nut, wouldn't it go away when Randy frets that string? Seems to me it would.

No one has suggested the strings (7 & 8) might be too close together. #Isn't this a possibility, too? #Although, I saw a Givens with the closest spacing I ever saw and it played fine....what do I know?

[John Zimm]

So, I adjusted the truss rod this weekend. It was a job finding the right allen key in all of my junk (treasures, really), but once I found the right one the adjustment went well. I turned it about a quarter turn the first time around, and it didn't seem to do much so I kept on turning. I must have loosened it a full turn or more, but the difference really amazed me. The A strings sounded dead before, but now they ring nicely again. The other strings sound better too, and I don't know if I am crazy, but I swear it is a little louder. The bridge is still set pretty high, so once I feel ambitious I will try and lower it and see how it goes.

Thanks again for your advice guys. I appreciate the help.

-John.

[Martin Jonas]

The mandolin came with the bridge all the way down and the intonation is perfect . But , I can't get away from the rattle on the 7 - 8 strings unless I raise it up about 10 turns on the top thumb screw and then the intonation is too high .

I don't think anybody has commented on this part of the original post. It sounds to me that Randy may simply have the action at the bridge set too low and gets a buzz from that. It is normal that the intonation wanders out when you raise the action and you will have to adjust the bridge position slightly once you have decided on the action that you want to go with. Of course, if you have to raise the action unplayably high before the buzz disappears, then something else it wrong, but if it is really only the intonation that prevents you from raising the bridge, then I'd try that first before touching the truss rod.

The other thing that was already mentioned is that the G-strings have a tendency to hit each other when struck hard. If you have a forceful playing style, increasing the string spacing on the lower strings may improve matters.

Martin